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	Replies: 61 - Last Post: May 5, 2008 3:11 AM by: Laurent Blume

jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 3:46 PM

We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
necessarily in nice ways.

There are many things in these blogs below I disagree with, but when you
spend the time to dig through them you are left with the realization
that we as a community are not well understood -- at best. :) For those
of us involved in this project, we certainly know we are behind in some
key ares, but it seems that others are using that fact to continually
hit us instead of getting involved and helping out or at least rooting
us on from the sidelines. Also, we are doing some great things here as a
community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as it should. Why?

OpenSolaris has been knocked around many times in our three years of
life, and I've always said that the knocks would continue until we built
a community -- something that is obvious and could not be denied.
Perhaps I was wrong. I think we have built a community, but perhaps it's
not obvious or easily seen. Or perhaps it's still too soon and the
community is still too small. Perhaps we are not open enough and our
community doesn't contribute enough. I don't know. What do you guys
think? Also, the first link below is from Matt Asay, who writes about
the difficulty of doing community development on company-sponsored
projects. I think he brings up a good issues there. We are being
compared to other open source communities and falling short when in
reality the comparison itself is faulty to begin with. All open source
communities are different, and we are one of the company-sponsored
communities and everything about that is different.

The difficulty of building community around commercial: The OpenSolaris
example
http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9928690-7.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=NewsBlog

What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris
http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/04/19/what-sun-was-trying-to-do-with-open-solaris/

Ted Ts’o Dissects “What Sun was trying to do with OpenSolaris”
http://www.michaeldolan.com/1171

Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
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Jason J. W. Wil...
jasonjwwilliams@gmai...

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 4:06 PM

in response to: jimgris

I think the T'so's attacks on OpenSolaris' slowness to adopt a
distributed SCM, and the sponsor model for changes are a bit unfair.
Linux's developmen has always been in the open and has had the benefit
of evolving from one open method of contribution to another. They've
never had to deal with the challenge of moving a project the size of
Solaris from closed source contribution practices into the community.
There's more work to be done, but the strides have been pretty amazing
to be honest.

Coming from a Linux history, and running both Linux and OpenSolaris at
the moment in production service, the quality of OpenSolaris is much
higher in terms of reliability. Maintaining that quality while opening
maximally to contributions has got to be a tricky road.

-J

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at sun dot com> wrote:
> We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> necessarily in nice ways.
>
> There are many things in these blogs below I disagree with, but when you
> spend the time to dig through them you are left with the realization
> that we as a community are not well understood -- at best. :) For those
> of us involved in this project, we certainly know we are behind in some
> key ares, but it seems that others are using that fact to continually
> hit us instead of getting involved and helping out or at least rooting
> us on from the sidelines. Also, we are doing some great things here as a
> community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as it should. Why?
>
> OpenSolaris has been knocked around many times in our three years of
> life, and I've always said that the knocks would continue until we built
> a community -- something that is obvious and could not be denied.
> Perhaps I was wrong. I think we have built a community, but perhaps it's
> not obvious or easily seen. Or perhaps it's still too soon and the
> community is still too small. Perhaps we are not open enough and our
> community doesn't contribute enough. I don't know. What do you guys
> think? Also, the first link below is from Matt Asay, who writes about
> the difficulty of doing community development on company-sponsored
> projects. I think he brings up a good issues there. We are being
> compared to other open source communities and falling short when in
> reality the comparison itself is faulty to begin with. All open source
> communities are different, and we are one of the company-sponsored
> communities and everything about that is different.
>
> The difficulty of building community around commercial: The OpenSolaris
> example
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9928690-7.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=NewsBlog
>
> What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris
> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/04/19/what-sun-was-trying-to-do-with-open-solaris/
>
> Ted Ts'o Dissects "What Sun was trying to do with OpenSolaris"
> http://www.michaeldolan.com/1171
>
> Jim
> --
> http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
> _______________________________________________
> advocacy-discuss mailing list
> advocacy-discuss at opensolaris dot org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy-discuss
>
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 7:33 PM

in response to: Jason J. W. Wil...

Jason J. W. Williams wrote:
> I think the T'so's attacks on OpenSolaris' slowness to adopt a
> distributed SCM, and the sponsor model for changes are a bit unfair.
> Linux's development has always been in the open and has had the benefit
> of evolving from one open method of contribution to another. They've
> never had to deal with the challenge of moving a project the size of
> Solaris from closed source contribution practices into the community.
> There's more work to be done, but the strides have been pretty amazing
> to be honest.
>

I'm happy to acknowledge that we are not as far along as we'd like to be
in some areas -- or even that we´ve screwed up some things as well --
but I'd just like the "strides have been pretty amazing" bit to come
through, too. :) I´m looking for more balance in how we are perceived
globally and I don´t see that yet. In time, I guess ...

Good comments.

Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris
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daleg

Posts: 374
From: US

Registered: 12/9/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 7:50 PM

in response to: jimgris

On Apr 25, 2008, at 10:33 PM, Jim Grisanzio wrote:

> I'm happy to acknowledge that we are not as far along as we'd like
> to be
> in some areas -- or even that we´ve screwed up some things as well --
> but I'd just like the "strides have been pretty amazing" bit to come
> through, too. :) I´m looking for more balance in how we are perceived
> globally and I don´t see that yet. In time, I guess ...

Step 1: Sun, first and foremost, needs to clearly and publicly state
where it would like open OpenSolaris development be. Timeframes don't
necessarily need to be attached to such a statement. Be truthful, and
stick to it, publicly and in the board room.

Step 1b: The statement needs to be detailed. Not necessarily down to
the mechanisms, but at least down to the flow.

Step 2: Stop measuring success only in terms of OpenSolaris ISO
downloads and OS.org account creations. Start measuring success in the
developer community by counting actual involvement. This would include
contributions to the source and higher-level participation (eg; more
non-Sun Core Contributors, a more diverse OGB make-up)

In closing - Passing out DVDs of a 4 month of SXDE for free will get
you only so far. Once people get those, and then get here... they're
going to want something that's both familiar enough and easy to bite
into in terms of process and tools. Motivation will rapidly evaporate
absent that.

/dale
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rafaelv

Posts: 222
From: BR

Registered: 12/21/06

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 4:42 PM

in response to: jimgris

Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> necessarily in nice ways.
>
> There are many things in these blogs below I disagree with, but when you
> spend the time to dig through them you are left with the realization
> that we as a community are not well understood -- at best. :) For those
> of us involved in this project, we certainly know we are behind in some
> key ares, but it seems that others are using that fact to continually
> hit us instead of getting involved and helping out or at least rooting
> us on from the sidelines. Also, we are doing some great things here as a
> community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as it should. Why?

I guess it's easier to see the short comings than what we've been
acomplishing. I was at FISL last week and during Ted Ts'o's talk asked
him his opinion on OpenSolaris and technologies like DTrace and ZFS. He
answered very neutrally, with the same opinions as he stated on his blog
except for the negative remarks towards some aspects of the program.

> OpenSolaris has been knocked around many times in our three years of
> life, and I've always said that the knocks would continue until we built
> a community -- something that is obvious and could not be denied.
> Perhaps I was wrong. I think we have built a community, but perhaps it's
> not obvious or easily seen. Or perhaps it's still too soon and the
> community is still too small. Perhaps we are not open enough and our
> community doesn't contribute enough. I don't know. What do you guys
> think?

IMO, when we're compared to other big OSS projects, one of the things
that stands out is the low % of patches submitted from developers
outside Sun. Which I believe is the key point to Ted Ts'o's comments.
When replying to my question at FISL, he said that having little
contributions from outside Sun mean that OpenSolaris is not getting the
benefits of open source development, which is a reasonable argument.

I don't know if the sole reason for low contributions is not having the
gate out yet. That adds to it, but I think we still have ways to go in
terms of getting developers in our code. I'm confident that
OpenSolaris2008.05 will have a very positive impact here, as I believe
having a solid distribution will bridge a huge gap.

So it just might be that these two gaps will be filled within very
little time of one another and we'll have an even more interesting year.

In any case, I think the negative critics will continue to come because
OpenSolaris is different than most OSS projects. Just like those other
projects were bashed when no one understood their model.

I think we have a great community, roughly 60k to 90k in one year shows
that even if you don't like numbers ;)

cheers
Rafael

> Also, the first link below is from Matt Asay, who writes about
> the difficulty of doing community development on company-sponsored
> projects. I think he brings up a good issues there. We are being
> compared to other open source communities and falling short when in
> reality the comparison itself is faulty to begin with. All open source
> communities are different, and we are one of the company-sponsored
> communities and everything about that is different.
>
> The difficulty of building community around commercial: The OpenSolaris
> example
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9928690-7.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=NewsBlog
>
> What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris
> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/04/19/what-sun-was-trying-to-do-with-open-solaris/
>
> Ted Ts’o Dissects “What Sun was trying to do with OpenSolaris”
> http://www.michaeldolan.com/1171
>
> Jim

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benr

Posts: 917
From:

Registered: 4/28/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 5:34 PM

in response to: rafaelv

Rafael Vanoni wrote:
> I don't know if the sole reason for low contributions is not having the
> gate out yet. That adds to it, but I think we still have ways to go in
> terms of getting developers in our code. I'm confident that
> OpenSolaris2008.05 will have a very positive impact here, as I believe
> having a solid distribution will bridge a huge gap.
>

Contribution is low because adoption is low. I'm sure if you looked at
Linux/GNU developers as a percentage of the total user base we'd be
pretty close.

Adoption is low for a variety of reasons, one of which is continued
uncertainty about where this is all going. The community has grown both
intra- and extra- SMI, however the communication has slowed to a
trickle. Even from an advocacy standpoint, last year we coordinated
events like CommunityOne here in this community, this year it was an
entirely corporate event, for example. Sun has gone from involving the
community in the process to making decisions on behalf of the community,
it started with the trademark issue and continues steadily worse, and
with the current OGB its not going to be fixed but rather solidified.

I'm sorry, I don't like being negative, but I've repeatedly raised flags
about this slide and those warnings went unheeded. The reality is, if
you want to _really_ know whats happening with OpenSolaris you need to
go work for Sun, transparency has been shot to hell.

The OpenSolaris(tm) distro will turn things around because it will bring
in a large influx of new people with little to no expectation or
history, that should put things back on an uptick. That will put the
responsibility squarely on Advocacy and Docs to bring new users in and
make them successful quickly, restoring some of the communication we had
with Sara, et al, to coordinate efforts inside and out will help that
process.

benr.
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 7:11 PM

in response to: benr

Ben Rockwood wrote:
> Contribution is low because adoption is low. I'm sure if you looked at
> Linux/GNU developers as a percentage of the total user base we'd be
> pretty close.
>
> Adoption is low for a variety of reasons, one of which is continued
> uncertainty about where this is all going. The community has grown
> both intra- and extra- SMI, however the communication has slowed to a
> trickle.

I agree on the communication bit. That will have to be addressed at the
summit. It involves advocacy. But I have to say, I´m happy we are no
longer tossing flaming arrows at each other every day on list, but we do
need to start the flow of information again in a more organized way. I
think this will be part of the OGB session as well. We as a community
need to set a clear direction.

> Even from an advocacy standpoint, last year we coordinated events like
> CommunityOne here in this community, this year it was an entirely
> corporate event, for example. Sun has gone from involving the
> community in the process to making decisions on behalf of the
> community, it started with the trademark issue and continues steadily
> worse, and with the current OGB its not going to be fixed but rather
> solidified.
>
> I'm sorry, I don't like being negative, but I've repeatedly raised
> flags about this slide and those warnings went unheeded. The reality
> is, if you want to _really_ know whats happening with OpenSolaris you
> need to go work for Sun, transparency has been shot to hell.

Oh, I wouldn´t at all go that far. But I get your point. :) Some are
more open than others.

> The OpenSolaris(tm) distro will turn things around because it will
> bring in a large influx of new people with little to no expectation or
> history, that should put things back on an uptick. That will put the
> responsibility squarely on Advocacy and Docs to bring new users in and
> make them successful quickly, restoring some of the communication we
> had with Sara, et al, to coordinate efforts inside and out will help
> that process.

I think the Advocacy CG probably needs to drive more actively than some
others, but I also really believe that advocacy (lower case ¨a¨) is
everyoneś responsibility in the community to one degree or another. And
also, one of things we have to realize is that there are people doing
advocacy for OpenSolaris who are /not/ part of the Advocacy CG and not
even part of the OpenSolaris community on opensolaris.org. Many are in
different countries. I´d really like to get those guys connected in some
way, but I realize that´s probably not a reality given time zones,
languages, and cultures. My point is that there is actually more
advocacy going on than we realize ... we just don´t see it all the time
because it´s distributed but not yet pervasive globally.

Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris

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daleg

Posts: 374
From: US

Registered: 12/9/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 7:37 PM

in response to: jimgris

On Apr 25, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Jim Grisanzio wrote:

>
> I agree on the communication bit. That will have to be addressed at
> the
> summit. It involves advocacy.

Yes, advocacy is always a part of reaching out, and I don't think the
advocacy effort is particularly anemic, either.

However, the problems we have - and is the source of missives on /.
such as the one from Tso - occur after that point. Once a person takes
notice of OpenSolaris (ie; is successfully advocated to) they come
with the expectation of eventually contributing and find out that the
mechanism of contribution is bewilderingly obfuscated and stovepiped
inside a tower of SUNW lingo and internal processes.

Sign the Contributor Agreement
Gain Contributor status so you can get a cr.o.o account
Find a SUNW sponsor
Hope that your fix wasn't already accomplished by someone with a
purple badge
And finally, hope to god that your improvement/fix doesn't require an
ARC case.

For the uninitiated who has a 2-line fix for something oss-bite-size,
the time and effort spent going through the rigamarole of getting that
fix in the repository can easily be daunting. Granted, two of those
four steps need only be done once... but even so it's a
psychologically expensive barrier to entry. OpenSolaris then goes from
something of interest to "eh" status and they move on or go back to
their daily life as it was. It's just not as easy as posting one's
patch to lkml or filing a bug with patch at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs

/dale
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 25, 2008 7:25 PM

in response to: rafaelv

Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 26, 2008 8:59 PM

in response to: rafaelv

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 6:42 PM, Rafael Vanoni <Rafael dot Vanoni at sun dot com> wrote:
> Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> > We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> > necessarily in nice ways.
> >
> > There are many things in these blogs below I disagree with, but when you
> > spend the time to dig through them you are left with the realization
> > that we as a community are not well understood -- at best. :) For those
> > of us involved in this project, we certainly know we are behind in some
> > key ares, but it seems that others are using that fact to continually
> > hit us instead of getting involved and helping out or at least rooting
> > us on from the sidelines. Also, we are doing some great things here as a
> > community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as it should. Why?
>
> I guess it's easier to see the short comings than what we've been
> acomplishing. I was at FISL last week and during Ted Ts'o's talk asked
> him his opinion on OpenSolaris and technologies like DTrace and ZFS. He
> answered very neutrally, with the same opinions as he stated on his blog
> except for the negative remarks towards some aspects of the program.
>
>
> > OpenSolaris has been knocked around many times in our three years of
> > life, and I've always said that the knocks would continue until we built
> > a community -- something that is obvious and could not be denied.
> > Perhaps I was wrong. I think we have built a community, but perhaps it's
> > not obvious or easily seen. Or perhaps it's still too soon and the
> > community is still too small. Perhaps we are not open enough and our
> > community doesn't contribute enough. I don't know. What do you guys
> > think?
>
> IMO, when we're compared to other big OSS projects, one of the things
> that stands out is the low % of patches submitted from developers
> outside Sun. Which I believe is the key point to Ted Ts'o's comments.
> When replying to my question at FISL, he said that having little
> contributions from outside Sun mean that OpenSolaris is not getting the
> benefits of open source development, which is a reasonable argument.
>
> I don't know if the sole reason for low contributions is not having the
> gate out yet. That adds to it, but I think we still have ways to go in
> terms of getting developers in our code. I'm confident that
> OpenSolaris2008.05 will have a very positive impact here, as I believe
> having a solid distribution will bridge a huge gap.
>
> So it just might be that these two gaps will be filled within very
> little time of one another and we'll have an even more interesting year.
>
> In any case, I think the negative critics will continue to come because
> OpenSolaris is different than most OSS projects. Just like those other
> projects were bashed when no one understood their model.
>
> I think we have a great community, roughly 60k to 90k in one year shows
> that even if you don't like numbers ;)

My problem is with the basis of that argument. The patches and
contributions that are being counted are only the ones for the ON
Community's Projects. That means that none of the contributions to
other communities are being taken into account. Only the patches that
go through request-sponsor.

It completely devalues the contributions made to other Community
Groups and attempts to place the sole value of OpenSolaris as being
represented by ON.

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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roumen

Posts: 83
From: Prague

Registered: 1/4/07

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 26, 2008 1:12 AM

in response to: jimgris

Hi guys,

I have been working for last 3 years as an evangelist on the NetBeans
project. I can tell you that we've been knocked around many times in the
beginning but it doesn't happen any more (or very rarely). I've been
thinking what caused the change - why don't the outsiders complain about
NetBeans community and development processes anymore. Yes, we did open
up some of our processes, started to use wiki for planning, all
engineering docs and so on. On the other hand the number of code
contributions for NetBeans from outside is still not very large
(although we get lots of plug-ins, community docs, blogs, screencasts,
etc.). We had been knocked for the number of code contributions and
non-Sun involvement very often in the beginning, but it doesn't happen
anymore.

I think that the biggest reason why people stopped to bash the community
was the adoption increase (I don't mean number of developers, but
users!). NetBeans user community grew 10x in size in last 4 years - and
it is not easy to complain anymore because many people outside of Sun
react and protect NetBeans. Developers also noticed that we were able to
innovate faster in many cases than competition which I think gave
NetBeans community credit.

It is very easy to attack an open source project if it's less popular
than it's competition and for some reason there are many people around
the world that like to do these kind of things :(

Another thing that we did was that we formalized the group of NetBeans
enthusiasts outside of Sun:
http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansDreamTeam

These guys have been amazing in protecting NetBeans community whenever
any basher attacked us - since they are not from Sun they have
credibility when protecting NetBeans community. The dream team has their
own mailing list and have lots of traffic working on growing and
advocating NetBeans community.

I don't know if OpenSolaris has any such organized group of worldwide
non-Sun enthusiasts, if not, you may consider estabilishing one (I know
you have many UGs but that's something different).

-Roman

Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> necessarily in nice ways.
>
> There are many things in these blogs below I disagree with, but when you
> spend the time to dig through them you are left with the realization
> that we as a community are not well understood -- at best. :) For those
> of us involved in this project, we certainly know we are behind in some
> key ares, but it seems that others are using that fact to continually
> hit us instead of getting involved and helping out or at least rooting
> us on from the sidelines. Also, we are doing some great things here as a
> community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as it should. Why?
>
> OpenSolaris has been knocked around many times in our three years of
> life, and I've always said that the knocks would continue until we built
> a community -- something that is obvious and could not be denied.
> Perhaps I was wrong. I think we have built a community, but perhaps it's
> not obvious or easily seen. Or perhaps it's still too soon and the
> community is still too small. Perhaps we are not open enough and our
> community doesn't contribute enough. I don't know. What do you guys
> think? Also, the first link below is from Matt Asay, who writes about
> the difficulty of doing community development on company-sponsored
> projects. I think he brings up a good issues there. We are being
> compared to other open source communities and falling short when in
> reality the comparison itself is faulty to begin with. All open source
> communities are different, and we are one of the company-sponsored
> communities and everything about that is different.
>
> The difficulty of building community around commercial: The OpenSolaris
> example
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9928690-7.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=NewsBlog
>
> What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris
> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/04/19/what-sun-was-trying-to-do-with-open-solaris/
>
> Ted Ts’o Dissects “What Sun was trying to do with OpenSolaris”
> http://www.michaeldolan.com/1171
>
> Jim
>

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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 27, 2008 5:48 AM

in response to: roumen

Roman Strobl wrote:
> Hi guys,
>

Hey, Roman, nice to see you here! :)

> I have been working for last 3 years as an evangelist on the NetBeans
> project. I can tell you that we've been knocked around many times in the
> beginning

Yes, I remember when Eclipse was launched. :) I was doing communications
for the NetBeans team at the time. That situation was actually tougher
than anything OpenSolaris has faced thus far (although the situations
are quite different).

> but it doesn't happen any more (or very rarely). I've been
> thinking what caused the change - why don't the outsiders complain about
> NetBeans community and development processes anymore. Yes, we did open
> up some of our processes, started to use wiki for planning, all
> engineering docs and so on. On the other hand the number of code
> contributions for NetBeans from outside is still not very large
> (although we get lots of plug-ins, community docs, blogs, screencasts,
> etc.).

The plug-ins feature of NetBeans probably enables a large number of
people to contribute without having to touch the main code base. Is that
an accurate way to look at it? An companies can contribute plug-ins,
too, right? I think Indiana will help us engage more developers who can
contribute and maintain packages without having to dig into the kernel
source.

> We had been knocked for the number of code contributions and
> non-Sun involvement very often in the beginning, but it doesn't happen
> anymore.
>
> I think that the biggest reason why people stopped to bash the community
> was the adoption increase (I don't mean number of developers, but
> users!).
Yah, up until very recently we have been a source community and anyone
hanging out here would have to be pretty technical. But with the
addition of easy-to-use distros and live CDs, we are gaining users and
non-techies. Now we need a few hundred thousand of them. :) And this is
especially important for us because the traditional Solaris market is
very quiet compared to Java. Now, the OpenSolaris community is more
vocal than the Solaris market (customers, I mean), but we are still too
small to have a big impact when you consider global communications
challenges. So, I agree with the need for users, and the numbers need to
scale dramatically.

> NetBeans user community grew 10x in size in last 4 years -

How many users? Are you especially strong in certain geos?

> and
> it is not easy to complain anymore because many people outside of Sun
> react and protect NetBeans. Developers also noticed that we were able to
> innovate faster in many cases than competition which I think gave
> NetBeans community credit.
>
> It is very easy to attack an open source project if it's less popular
> than it's competition and for some reason there are many people around
> the world that like to do these kind of things :(
>
> Another thing that we did was that we formalized the group of NetBeans
> enthusiasts outside of Sun:
> http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansDreamTeam
>
> These guys have been amazing in protecting NetBeans community whenever
> any basher attacked us - since they are not from Sun they have
> credibility when protecting NetBeans community. The dream team has their
> own mailing list and have lots of traffic working on growing and
> advocating NetBeans community.
>
> I don't know if OpenSolaris has any such organized group of worldwide
> non-Sun enthusiasts, if not, you may consider estabilishing one (I know
> you have many UGs but that's something different).
>
We have user groups here inside the Advocacy Community Group. We
launched with zero UGs and now there are almost 70 on opensolaris.org. I
think there are a few more out there not directly connected to this
site, too. But we don't have any other direct outreach program here.
It's come up from time to time, but resources were never there to
support it (I myself have many proposals with cob webs on them) and
quite frankly interest in the community has been low. I think that will
change with Indiana, though, as we specifically reach out to users with
a binary. Most recently Aaron proposed an evangelist-type program, so
eventually something like this will come to OpenSolaris. I'd say that
the most active user traffic thus far have been in Bangalore, and it's
no surprise that they've been working on a distro for some time.

Jim
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roumen

Posts: 83
From: Prague

Registered: 1/4/07

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 27, 2008 5:47 PM

in response to: jimgris

Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> The plug-ins feature of NetBeans probably enables a large number of
> people to contribute without having to touch the main code base. Is
> that an accurate way to look at it? An companies can contribute
> plug-ins, too, right? I think Indiana will help us engage more
> developers who can contribute and maintain packages without having to
> dig into the kernel source.
Yes - we get a lot of contributions as plug-ins. We also receive patches
attached to issues in the bug tracking system. But source code
contributions are not the only way - for example we received in past
year 120+ docs contributions (tutorials and articles). There are other
ways - localizations, evangelism, bug filing and fixing, NetCAT
(community QA), etc. Non-code contributions are also very important and
are mostly much easier to do so.
>> NetBeans user community grew 10x in size in last 4 years -
> How many users? Are you especially strong in certain geos?
We track "connected" users - these are people who connect with NetBeans
to receive updates. This is a very pesimistic measure because we don't
track users behind firewalls, users without pernament internet
connectivity, and users that disable the update mechanism. Although the
number doesn't show the total number of NetBeans users (because of
reasons above), it's quite a precise measure for relative growth of the
community. We went from 45K connected users to 450K users currently
during last 4 years. As for the countries, we do have some analysis... I
can give you some data next weekend in Santa Cruz at the summit if you
are interested.

-Roman
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 12:34 AM

in response to: roumen

Roman Strobl wrote:
> Yes - we get a lot of contributions as plug-ins. We also receive
> patches attached to issues in the bug tracking system. But source code
> contributions are not the only way - for example we received in past
> year 120+ docs contributions (tutorials and articles). There are other
> ways - localizations, evangelism, bug filing and fixing, NetCAT
> (community QA), etc. Non-code contributions are also very important
> and are mostly much easier to do so.

Cool. I'd love to know how you guys keep track of your contributions and
how you promote your contributors throughout the world. I'm personally
interested especially in the localizations, too.

>>> NetBeans user community grew 10x in size in last 4 years -
> We track "connected" users - these are people who connect with
> NetBeans to receive updates. This is a very pesimistic measure because
> we don't track users behind firewalls, users without pernament
> internet connectivity, and users that disable the update mechanism.
> Although the number doesn't show the total number of NetBeans users
> (because of reasons above), it's quite a precise measure for relative
> growth of the community. We went from 45K connected users to 450K
> users currently during last 4 years. As for the countries, we do have
> some analysis... I can give you some data next weekend in Santa Cruz
> at the summit if you are interested.

Yes, absolutely. And thanks for the information. See you next weekend in
Santa Cruz and San Francisco. :)

Jim

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joerg

Posts: 3,783
From: DE

Registered: 4/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 26, 2008 7:02 AM

in response to: jimgris

Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at Sun dot COM> wrote:

> We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> necessarily in nice ways.
>
> There are many things in these blogs below I disagree with, but when you
> spend the time to dig through them you are left with the realization
> that we as a community are not well understood -- at best. :) For those

Try to think about a different view. It may be that Sun missunderstands _why_
the OpenSolaris community already works. Understanding why the current
community works could help to speed up the growth of this community and it
would result in a better OpenSolaris soon.

> of us involved in this project, we certainly know we are behind in some
> key ares, but it seems that others are using that fact to continually
> hit us instead of getting involved and helping out or at least rooting
> us on from the sidelines. Also, we are doing some great things here as a
> community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as it should. Why?

I am not sure if it is a good idea to listen to these people. Many of these
people are from the "lost generation" (see explanataion below).

> OpenSolaris has been knocked around many times in our three years of
> life, and I've always said that the knocks would continue until we built
> a community -- something that is obvious and could not be denied.
> Perhaps I was wrong. I think we have built a community, but perhaps it's
> not obvious or easily seen. Or perhaps it's still too soon and the
> community is still too small. Perhaps we are not open enough and our
> community doesn't contribute enough. I don't know. What do you guys
> think? Also, the first link below is from Matt Asay, who writes about
> the difficulty of doing community development on company-sponsored
> projects. I think he brings up a good issues there. We are being
> compared to other open source communities and falling short when in
> reality the comparison itself is faulty to begin with. All open source
> communities are different, and we are one of the company-sponsored
> communities and everything about that is different.

SunOS had a community 20 years ago already, when Linux did not exist.
There is no need to *build* a community but there is a need to foster an
existing community. If you use a defilibrator on a person with a beating
heart, you may kill that person. If you try to create a community although
there is a community, you may kill the existing community.

Sun did make to major mistakes in the past.

1) the desktop was "forgotten" in favor of mainframe, but if you ignore
the desktop, you lose visibility and visibility is important if
you like to get new customers.

2) the opensource and university strategy was run as if there was no Linux.
There was Solaris source in the universities but the students did
not know this. Before they asked other people, they searched the
internet and found Linux. This created a university generation
that used Linux instead of Solaris for daiyly work and research.
These people are now the decision makers that buy Linux related
stuff. This is why I call this generation a "lost generation".
You will not get these people back with a reasonable amount of
effort. Even worse: listening to these people has a high potential
of losing the old SunOS community that still exists.

> The difficulty of building community around commercial: The OpenSolaris
> example
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9928690-7.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=NewsBlog
>
> What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris
> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/04/19/what-sun-was-trying-to-do-with-open-solaris/
>
This tries to discuss a blog that tries to make the missing accessibility of
the source control system guilty for problems. This is not the real problem.
The real problem is that effort from the existing OpenSolaris community
is ignored and that it is close to impossible to contribute. But this is not
a technical problem, it is a problem caused by burocracy rules that prevent
collaboration. This does not only slow down the cooperation with external
development but it even slows down things inside Sun.

Given the fact that there have been several attempts to discuss these problems
in OpenSolaris mailing lists that all ended up in mudslinging, I propose to
discuss this at a face to face discussion next weekend.....

> Ted Ts?o Dissects ?What Sun was trying to do with OpenSolaris?
> http://www.michaeldolan.com/1171

The CDDL was no mistake. It see no attempt from the Sun upper management
to find out where problems with collaboration with the community are.
This seems to be a mistake.....

What we need is that the right people inside Sun accept that there is a
OpenSolaris community that is willing to contribute and that there needs to be
a supporting infrastructure for this inside Sun. This does not mean technology
but people!

Claiming that collaboration with OpenSolaris can only happen on the
OpenSolaris.org portal is a mistake. This is an attempt to patronize the
community.

As with the defilibrator, first listen to the heart beats and do not try to
create something that already exists.

Jörg

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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 26, 2008 9:03 PM

in response to: joerg

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> This tries to discuss a blog that tries to make the missing accessibility of
> the source control system guilty for problems. This is not the real problem.
> The real problem is that effort from the existing OpenSolaris community
> is ignored and that it is close to impossible to contribute. But this is not
> a technical problem, it is a problem caused by burocracy rules that prevent
> collaboration. This does not only slow down the cooperation with external
> development but it even slows down things inside Sun.

Part of it is technical problems -- at least when it comes to ON.
Mercurial and assorted tools only reached maturity for use recently.

> Claiming that collaboration with OpenSolaris can only happen on the
> OpenSolaris.org portal is a mistake. This is an attempt to patronize the
> community.

I've never seen that claimed, but the collaboration should flow
through and be centered around the community. To coordinate something,
you must do so inevitably from a central location.

The OpenSolaris websites makes the most sense as that location...

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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joerg

Posts: 3,783
From: DE

Registered: 4/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 27, 2008 4:07 AM

in response to: Shawn Walker

"Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:

> Part of it is technical problems -- at least when it comes to ON.
> Mercurial and assorted tools only reached maturity for use recently.

If we did use an upgraded SCCS and base things on collaboration, this
"technical problem" could have been solved a year ago already. Somebody did
chose a solution that is extremely expensive in comparison to upgrading SCCS.
Even this fact proves that the base problem is not of technical nature.....

> > Claiming that collaboration with OpenSolaris can only happen on the
> > OpenSolaris.org portal is a mistake. This is an attempt to patronize the
> > community.
>
> I've never seen that claimed, but the collaboration should flow

This looks strange, did you never read the mail you wrote?

If you have problems to remember, look e.g. at the thread that contains this:
b9c544f0802210824i7df0b057o1513e6b137346575 at mail dot gmail dot com mail.

Collaboration works if people are willing to collaborate. If a project is
of interest for opensolaris, it is sufficient to add a link to opensolaris.org.
This is how the web is intented to work....

> through and be centered around the community. To coordinate something,
> you must do so inevitably from a central location.
>
> The OpenSolaris websites makes the most sense as that location...

OpenSolaris projects existed long before opensolaris.org became accessible by
anyone and this was still long before opensolaris.org became writable by
communities. If you were a shepherd, would you claim that it makes most sense
to have all sheeps of the world on your willow?

Jörg

--
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 27, 2008 1:00 PM

in response to: joerg

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:07 AM, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg dot Schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> "Shawn Walker" <swalker at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
>
> > Part of it is technical problems -- at least when it comes to ON.
> > Mercurial and assorted tools only reached maturity for use recently.
>
> If we did use an upgraded SCCS and base things on collaboration, this
> "technical problem" could have been solved a year ago already. Somebody did
> chose a solution that is extremely expensive in comparison to upgrading SCCS.
> Even this fact proves that the base problem is not of technical nature.....

That would be your choice, but the community made a different choice.
Both for the goals of this project and other reasons, Mercurial was
selected. Mercurial was much closer to what was needed than SCCS at
the time the decision was made. The expense of the solution is
irrelevant, the Tools CG made their decision, and Sun supported it by
adopting that decision internally.

> > > Claiming that collaboration with OpenSolaris can only happen on the
> > > OpenSolaris.org portal is a mistake. This is an attempt to patronize the
> > > community.
> >
> > I've never seen that claimed, but the collaboration should flow
>
> This looks strange, did you never read the mail you wrote?
>
> If you have problems to remember, look e.g. at the thread that contains this:
> b9c544f0802210824i7df0b057o1513e6b137346575 at mail dot gmail dot com mail.

I see nothing in that message where I stated that "collaboration with
OpenSolaris can only happen on the OpenSolaris.org portal."

Regardless, it remains my firm belief that effective, useful
collaboration can only happen through the OpenSolaris Community. As
such, the way to communicate with the community, in full view of
others, is through whatever portal this community chooses to use.

> > through and be centered around the community. To coordinate something,
> > you must do so inevitably from a central location.
> >
> > The OpenSolaris websites makes the most sense as that location...
>
> OpenSolaris projects existed long before opensolaris.org became accessible by
> anyone and this was still long before opensolaris.org became writable by
> communities. If you were a shepherd, would you claim that it makes most sense
> to have all sheeps of the world on your willow?

Analogies aside; it is impractical to coordinate things without a
centralised communication place; the current OpenSolaris.org website
represents such a place.

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 27, 2008 7:47 AM

in response to: joerg

Joerg Schilling wrote:
> 2) the opensource and university strategy was run as if there was no Linux.
> There was Solaris source in the universities but the students did
> not know this. Before they asked other people, they searched the
> internet and found Linux. This created a university generation
> that used Linux instead of Solaris for daiyly work and research.
> These people are now the decision makers that buy Linux related
> stuff. This is why I call this generation a "lost generation".
> You will not get these people back with a reasonable amount of
> effort. Even worse: listening to these people has a high potential
> of losing the old SunOS community that still exists.
>

hey ...

Sure. Good point. And even though our source was available on campus the
license was far too restrictive to do any good. Bottom line: we left the
universities because we were closed and we lost out. Now we're open and
we're going back. Nice thing about universities is that they attract
young people and they make new graduates all the time. Every year, in
fact, and in some countries they are making them in large numbers. It
just takes a little time, that's all. Some of this is probably happening
organically, but Sun is investing a lot in hundreds of Campus
Ambassadors and in various other university-oriented programs and
there's big movement in China and India already. The Western world will
come along in due time.

As far as the "old SunOS community" you cite, I'm not sure it exists in
any great numbers. It's there, surely, but I'm talking about the
construction of a new and global community based mostly on new users.
And I do think the OpenSolaris community has to be actively re-built,
and that's a position I've had from the beginning. We started four years
ago from pretty much nothing, which is why I have little tolerance for
the belly-aching from the sidelines about how we supposedly don't have a
community and how we basically suck around here. Bullshit. We have a
community. It's small but growing. We set out to build something, and we
are still building. We've done an outstanding job. I know that
"building" word may not fit in the open source world, but I can usually
find active building in most so-called "organic" efforts. Someone is
investing resources somewhere to do something, even if those resources
are widely distributed and not from only one company such as in our
case. I think it's a balance, that's all.

>> The difficulty of building community around commercial: The OpenSolaris
>> example
>> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9928690-7.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=NewsBlog
>>
>> What Sun was trying to do with Open Solaris
>> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/04/19/what-sun-was-trying-to-do-with-open-solaris/
>>
>>
> This tries to discuss a blog that tries to make the missing accessibility of
> the source control system guilty for problems. This is not the real problem.
> The real problem is that effort from the existing OpenSolaris community
> is ignored and that it is close to impossible to contribute.

Some parts are difficult, sure, but others aren't. I think the docs guys
are more than welcoming over there. Alan in the past was actively
looking for help on the site but got no takers. And I'm always reading
in blogs or finding list posts about people contributing. It's mixed.
It's spotty. It's not all collected in one place for people to point to
and it's certainly not a massive level of contributions that it's
obvious for people to see. I'm not saying it's ok, but I also don't
think it's impossible either. And this brings up a good point about
language: we have to stop going to extremes when we describe
OpenSolaris. I think sometimes Sun in media conversations tens to gloss
over things from a 10K foot level (which only leads uninvolved observers
to think that everything's great in here), and I think some community
members (either Sun or non-Sun) go way over to the other end and say
it's just a disaster. Neither is true for the vast majority of the
project. We need to build from the middle /out/ to the edges, not from
either edge /in/. In other words, let's knock off thing we /can/ do and
not get paralyzed by all the stuff we /can't/ do.

> But this is not
> a technical problem, it is a problem caused by burocracy rules that prevent
> collaboration. This does not only slow down the cooperation with external
> development but it even slows down things inside Sun.
>
> Given the fact that there have been several attempts to discuss these problems
> in OpenSolaris mailing lists that all ended up in mudslinging, I propose to
> discuss this at a face to face discussion next weekend.....
>

I think the Summit will be a great venue to drop the rhetoric, pick up a
beer, and just talk and bang out some things we can /do/. As far as the
mud is concerned, things have been much more civil lately and I hope
that continues. Good /will/ be generated next week, and we have to carry
that back into the community and get it on these lists and then come
together at the next summit or conference or user group meeting and
re-generate and repeat. We have to create a little culture and some
traditions around OpenSolaris, and that really hasn't developed yet. It
will.

>> Ted Ts?o Dissects ?What Sun was trying to do with OpenSolaris?
>> http://www.michaeldolan.com/1171
>>
>
> The CDDL was no mistake. It see no attempt from the Sun upper management
> to find out where problems with collaboration with the community are.
> This seems to be a mistake.....
>
> What we need is that the right people inside Sun accept that there is a
> OpenSolaris community that is willing to contribute and that there needs to be
> a supporting infrastructure for this inside Sun. This does not mean technology
> but people!
>
> Claiming that collaboration with OpenSolaris can only happen on the
> OpenSolaris.org portal is a mistake. This is an attempt to patronize the
> community.
>

I think for the main development issues it's best that they live here on
os.org since that's where the largest number of engineers are. However,
I'd very much like to see other related projects (distros, apps, etc)
develop and distribute globally. We shouldn't think in terms of one
community any more. We are part of a community of communities.

Jim
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joerg

Posts: 3,783
From: DE

Registered: 4/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 30, 2008 5:37 AM

in response to: jimgris

Jim Grisanzio <Jim dot Grisanzio at Sun dot COM> wrote:

> As far as the "old SunOS community" you cite, I'm not sure it exists in
> any great numbers. It's there, surely, but I'm talking about the
> construction of a new and global community based mostly on new users.

I would like to check the number of contributors or potential
contributors from both parts and I am sure that the number of
"consumners" is much higher in the list of the people who recently
discovered OpenSolaris.

> And I do think the OpenSolaris community has to be actively re-built,
> and that's a position I've had from the beginning. We started four years
> ago from pretty much nothing, which is why I have little tolerance for
> the belly-aching from the sidelines about how we supposedly don't have a
> community and how we basically suck around here. Bullshit. We have a
> community. It's small but growing. We set out to build something, and we
> are still building. We've done an outstanding job. I know that
> "building" word may not fit in the open source world, but I can usually
> find active building in most so-called "organic" efforts. Someone is
> investing resources somewhere to do something, even if those resources
> are widely distributed and not from only one company such as in our
> case. I think it's a balance, that's all.

I believe that you cannot really artificially make the active community grow
faster. But it is inly the active community that counts.

> > What we need is that the right people inside Sun accept that there is a
> > OpenSolaris community that is willing to contribute and that there needs to be
> > a supporting infrastructure for this inside Sun. This does not mean technology
> > but people!
> >
> > Claiming that collaboration with OpenSolaris can only happen on the
> > OpenSolaris.org portal is a mistake. This is an attempt to patronize the
> > community.
> >
>
> I think for the main development issues it's best that they live here on
> os.org since that's where the largest number of engineers are. However,
> I'd very much like to see other related projects (distros, apps, etc)
> develop and distribute globally. We shouldn't think in terms of one
> community any more. We are part of a community of communities.

If you like to make people visible, it is sufficient to add the right links
to os.org.

Jörg

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Jason J. W. Wil...
jasonjwwilliams@gmai...

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 28, 2008 9:27 AM

in response to: joerg

> These people are now the decision makers that buy Linux related
> stuff. This is why I call this generation a "lost generation".
> You will not get these people back with a reasonable amount of
> effort. Even worse: listening to these people has a high potential
> of losing the old SunOS community that still exists.
>

I strongly disagree with the idea that you will not get them back,
primarily because I belong to the "lost generation". My experiences
with Solaris in college in the late nineties and early 2000s was
abysmal. We had a brand spanking new CS lab donated by Sun...after
hacking with Solaris for a week we wiped them and loaded 'em with SuSE
for Linux. Why? Everybody had more experience with the GNU toolchain
and it was almost impossible to get Solaris to work right with our
OpenLDAP server for central authentication.

Anyhow, myself and my colleagues at my current company all went to
school together and were hell bent on not running Solaris as a result
of those experiences. That is until we had reliability issues with
Linux, OpenSolaris became available circa 2005, and we were forced to
look for other options. Without OpenSolaris you wouldn't have
recovered the small part of the "lost generation" that works at my
company.

Not to mention that the GNU toolchain works properly now on Solaris,
and Solaris as a whole is easily accessible to Linux-trained folk
thanks to a lot of work in the last 3 years. Imagine what would've
been the case had this been available circa 2000 when we were CS
students? I think its a mistake to write off evangelization to an
entire group of folks who are software hackers and therefore curious
by nature. Just my two cents.

-J
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Laurent Blume
laurent@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 12:39 AM

in response to: jimgris

Jim Grisanzio a écrit :
> We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> necessarily in nice ways.
[snip]

Jim - I find Ted's article rather relevant.

Now, as a long-standing member of the Solaris, then OpenSolaris
community, I'm completely in the dark as to where this community is going.

First, what does OpenSolaris means? It's not what it was just one year
ago. Will it be still the same in one year from now? I doubt it.
Sun managed to kill all the buzz about the other OpenSolaris distros.
Now, everybody outside some developers is waiting for that Indiana thing.
For me, one year ago, «OpenSolaris» was a community, however new. Now,
it's a Sun-controlled product in which we outside Sun have very little
to say.

And, after Indiana/OpenSolaris ships next month - then what?
My production systems are running Solaris. How will they benefit from
OpenSolaris? What's the roadmap? Will there be patches to S10? Or some
Solaris Next? Solaris 10 is getting old, and I feel the pressure to
upgrade it. To what?
I often read comments from Sun engineers advising to go to SXCR or
Indiana/OpenSolaris. If I've got to put *my* job on the frontline, I'll
got for something more reasonable, like RHEL, thank you.

So, where are we going? Who, in our Community, knows that?

Laurent
--
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 2:12 AM

in response to: Laurent Blume

Laurent Blume wrote:
> Jim - I find Ted's article rather relevant.
>

hi Laurent ...

Well, he makes some good points, yes. But you have to dig out from under
the sarcasm to get to them. If the points were just neutral or
constructive criticism or offers to help, than I'd not have a problem
with it. I'd welcome it, actually. We've certainly had a lot of
criticism on our own lists, so what's the big deal from outside. But as
soon as someone attacks (especially if they are not involved), I stop
listening. It's that simple. They lose their credibility. He quotes John
Plocher at length, which is fine, but had he followed the rest of that
thread he quoted he'd find that not everyone agrees with John. I
certainly don't. And that's fine. That was just a discussion. And,
actually, we've had that type of "who are we and where are we going"
discussion many times before, and we have room here for many opinions. I
feel lucky to be able to express my opinion with all these smart people
in here. But from one quote he draws a conclusion that is wrong and it
spins around to a variety of other issues. That's my only beef, really.
An accusatory attitude can lead to incorrect or incomplete conclusions.
And when we try to correct at least the factual errors while we
acknowledge our shortcomings, many times we are just flamed more. Ted's
article is not as bad as some others, though. But it fits the pattern.

I sent the links to this list because we all know our situation, and I
wanted to engage the people who are /involved/ in a conversation about
how we do more advocacy about the things we are doing right.

> Now, as a long-standing member of the Solaris, then OpenSolaris
> community, I'm completely in the dark as to where this community is going.
>

Totally agree our communications have been poor this past year. And I
think that is a problem across the project (Sun corporate, engineering,
marketing, community), and some of us have been saying that for quite
some time now. I think now we finally recognize the issue needs fixing,
and I think we are going to make a good faith effort to start cleaning
that up at the summit.

> First, what does OpenSolaris means? It's not what it was just one year
> ago.

Right. It has changed. We started as a community and a bunch of source
code, some distros and people came along, and now we are adding a new
distro from which other distros can be built. That's a big deal. Some of
us a long time ago wanted to launch with source /and/ a binary /and/
co-development tools, but heck, we were lucky enough to get out the door
three year ago with buildable source (and swiss cheese source at that)
with no binary (not SXDE, you know what I mean) and no development
infrastructure. Sorry. What's happening now was no possible then, and
it's not even close. Hundreds of things had to come first. We wanted
more, and if you go back in the archives that's clear. I don't think we
had a good sense of what "more" meant, obviously, because we had other
things to do at the time. Anyway, then we had to spend over a year and a
half after all that releasing the rest of the source and working on the
site and other infrastructure issues.

In other words, we have done the best we could with the tools we've had
given our circumstances at any given moment. I know people don't like to
hear that, but what can I say. It frustrates me to say it, believe me.
But to be honest, I have not met one person outside Sun who has a core
competency in opening 10 million lines of kernel code (and millions more
from other consolidations subsequently), much of which contained many
diverse copyrights, on top of moving 1,000 engineers and all their
infrastructure outside that makes up a product that touches virtually
every part of the company and is tied to virtually all of the company's
customers and revenue streams while the very same people build, ship,
and support the product itself during a time when the company was
struggling in the market. Think back 3 or 4 years ago. Things were very
different for Sun back then. Excuses, I realize, but I'm still looking
for the team that has done this before at this scale. We are not talking
about a side product here. We are talking about the company's /core/
product. This effort had to take years, and for that reason, I have
always advocated a massively humble approach in terms of public
communications. Sure, we've screwed up some things -- name one project
has hasn't -- but we've done a lot right when you look at it in context.
That's all I want. To be judged in context.

> Will it be still the same in one year from now?
>

I hope it continues to change and grow and build on what we have done in
the past. You have to expect a project this young and big to change. In
fact, if we are going to reach out to quite literally hundreds of
thousands of users, the community /will/ change big time. That's good.
Now, I get your point here that our recent changes weren't handled well.
I agree. We live and learn and move on and apologize along the way.

> Sun managed to kill all the buzz about the other OpenSolaris distros.
> Now, everybody outside some developers is waiting for that Indiana thing.
> For me, one year ago, «OpenSolaris» was a community, however new. Now,
> it's a Sun-controlled product in which we outside Sun have very little
> to say.
>
Well, we can agree or disagree on those points and depending on my mood
I go back and forth. :) However, if we want to make a /community/ of it
we can because that is personal and that comes from direct interactions.
In other words, stop thinking of "Sun" and go back to thinking of the
individual "people" that you've had interactions with that created that
feeling of community in the first place. That's what I'm trying to do,
to be perfectly honest. I'm looking for people at Sun and outside Sun
who are interested in collaborating on whatever project happens to be in
front of my face. That's all I know how to do, Laurent. One at a time. I
appreciate your position. I really do. There are many people who were
turned off by recent events, but I'm happy we are having this
conversation because that means we can re-connect.

> And, after Indiana/OpenSolaris ships next month - then what?
>

We start building a user community. We engage application and package
developers. We start taking a new class of contributions. We try to
create systems to better manager the contributions we are already
getting. We keep adding layers of the community on top, or around, what
we have already built. We keep upgrading the website. We get our content
management system and wiki. We localize the site. We meet more people.
We move more infrastructure outside and finish the scm migration. We
solve the bug problem. Etc. Etc. Etc. We just keep going. All of these
things -- and many more -- are absolutely perfect community building
opportunities. All of them. I don't view any of them negatively.

> My production systems are running Solaris. How will they benefit from
> OpenSolaris? What's the roadmap? Will there be patches to S10? Or some
> Solaris Next? Solaris 10 is getting old, and I feel the pressure to
> upgrade it. To what?
> I often read comments from Sun engineers advising to go to SXCR or
> Indiana/OpenSolaris. If I've got to put *my* job on the frontline, I'll
> got for something more reasonable, like RHEL, thank you.
>

Sorry, my friend. You are a little out of my league on the various
products and versions and such. :) Smarter people than I would have to
offer come context here.

> So, where are we going? Who, in our Community, knows that?
>

I think the OGB and Sun are concerned about the situation of
communicating a strategy, and I feel we are going to seriously address
it at the summit. Simon talked about generating some new documents
articulating an overall strategy that Sun and the community can come
together around, and we've had some preliminary conversations about it
on the OGB (nothing in detail, though). We are going to have a
governance panel at the Summit, and I expect this to be a topic of
conversation. We needed a breather, though. We had to take this down
time and pull back a bit. The Summit, Indiana, and CommunityOne have all
been taxing things to implement at the same time, but things will come
to fruition. And, I don't know, perhaps we'll come out of this stronger
and better able to grow.

You have brought up a lot of good points. I don't have all the answers
(or necessarily good answers), but I hope you feel I'm being straight
with you. I'm just trying to move this forward to the next step and take
one step at a time ...

:)

Jim

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webmink

Posts: 689
From: GB

Registered: 5/18/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 2:42 AM

in response to: jimgris

On Apr 29, 2008, at 10:12, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>> On Apr 29, 2008, at 08:39, Laurent Blume wrote:
>> So, where are we going? Who, in our Community, knows that?
>>
>
> I think the OGB and Sun are concerned about the situation of
> communicating a strategy, and I feel we are going to seriously address
> it at the summit. Simon talked about generating some new documents
> articulating an overall strategy that Sun and the community can come
> together around, and we've had some preliminary conversations about it
> on the OGB (nothing in detail, though).

The new OGB has been very keen to get fresh communication with Sun
flowing, especially since it's clear to all of us that the direction
around OpenSolaris for Sun is crystallising and that affects all of
us. I've been talking with Tim Cramer (the current contact Sun has
designated for the OpenSolaris community) and I sincerely hope he will
be able to give us a high-level view of Sun's plans very very soon
(say, this coming weekend at the OGB town hall). I know he has some
slides in preparation.

S.

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Laurent Blume
laurent@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 7:28 AM

in response to: webmink

Simon Phipps a écrit :
> The new OGB has been very keen to get fresh communication with Sun
> flowing, especially since it's clear to all of us that the direction
> around OpenSolaris for Sun is crystallising and that affects all of
> us. I've been talking with Tim Cramer (the current contact Sun has
> designated for the OpenSolaris community) and I sincerely hope he will
> be able to give us a high-level view of Sun's plans very very soon
> (say, this coming weekend at the OGB town hall). I know he has some
> slides in preparation.

Very good to know, thanks Simon!

--
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Laurent Blume
laurent@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 7:27 AM

in response to: jimgris

I hope my answers below make sense. This topic is not one with clear-cut
answers, and finding balance is difficult.

Jim Grisanzio a écrit :

> Well, he makes some good points, yes. But you have to dig out from under
> the sarcasm to get to them. If the points were just neutral or
> constructive criticism or offers to help, than I'd not have a problem
> with it. I'd welcome it, actually.

Hmmm, I think you're right, technically. But we should know that it's
how the OSS community, and in particular the Linux OSS community, has
been communicating for years. It's not exactly new, and if Sun is not
there, they find other targets at will, sometimes in their own ranks.
So, like it or not, we have to deal with it, and manage to reduce the
number of those comments.

> We've certainly had a lot of
> criticism on our own lists, so what's the big deal from outside. But as
> soon as someone attacks (especially if they are not involved), I stop
> listening. It's that simple. They lose their credibility. He quotes John
> Plocher at length, which is fine, but had he followed the rest of that
> thread he quoted he'd find that not everyone agrees with John. I
> certainly don't. And that's fine. That was just a discussion. And,
> actually, we've had that type of "who are we and where are we going"
> discussion many times before, and we have room here for many opinions.

Oh, I agree, we do have opinions! But how does one gets selected to
become reality?

> feel lucky to be able to express my opinion with all these smart people
> in here. But from one quote he draws a conclusion that is wrong and it
> spins around to a variety of other issues. That's my only beef, really.
> An accusatory attitude can lead to incorrect or incomplete conclusions.
> And when we try to correct at least the factual errors while we
> Ted's article is not as bad as some others, though. But it fits the pattern.

I agree, and from the comments, Ted seems to be ready to discuss it
further, so if it's really, again, a matter of miscommunication, it can
be corrected.
But I believe it's not that simple.

> I sent the links to this list because we all know our situation, and I
> wanted to engage the people who are /involved/ in a conversation about
> how we do more advocacy about the things we are doing right.

How can they be summed up? It seems to me that it's too technical and
difficult to explain to someone not already involved.

> Totally agree our communications have been poor this past year. And I
> think that is a problem across the project (Sun corporate, engineering,
> marketing, community), and some of us have been saying that for quite
> some time now. I think now we finally recognize the issue needs fixing,
> and I think we are going to make a good faith effort to start cleaning
> that up at the summit.

After the initial opening effort and enthusiasm, many people have just
reverted to their everyday work. I can understand that. Sun people work
together, inside Sun. It's where it's the easiest for them. They've been
used to shut up when they talk to an outsider, whatever their role. And
I find it natural, too.
Now, in the beginning, it was all enthusiastic talk about opening
Solaris. Now, it's the every day duties again, and making things work
with newcomers.

> Right. It has changed. We started as a community and a bunch of source
> code, some distros and people came along, and now we are adding a new
> distro from which other distros can be built.
[snip]

So, it really feels that Sun is positioning itself as *the* leader of
the OpenSolaris Community. Asserting its trademarks and all. It still
makes me uneasy. I'll wait to see if there are really new distros
successfully sprouting from it.

[snip]
> -- but we've done a lot right when you look at it in context.
> That's all I want. To be judged in context.

And it's fair to ask, but really, it's not realistic. Come on, whenever
did that happens?

> I hope it continues to change and grow and build on what we have done in
> the past. You have to expect a project this young and big to change. In
> fact, if we are going to reach out to quite literally hundreds of
> thousands of users, the community /will/ change big time. That's good.
> Now, I get your point here that our recent changes weren't handled well.
> I agree. We live and learn and move on and apologize along the way.

It's a matter of where OpenSolaris fits in Sun offering. Because, as
nice as it is, who is supposed to use it? People ask me about it,
regular users, developers, sysadmins: who is it for?

Certainly not users, at least, since the lack of some major applications
prevent it for daily use.

Developers I know are doing HPC, so it's not for them either, since the
compilers they use, Intel, Portland, are not there.

So it leaves sysadmins around me. But they're a rather small audience,
and they usually already have a brand of *nix they like, and honestly,
OpenSolaris is not a compelling choice at this point. There isn't any
«Wow!» feature not already present somewhere else to make people switch.

[snip]
> That's all I know how to do, Laurent. One at a time. I
> appreciate your position. I really do. There are many people who were
> turned off by recent events, but I'm happy we are having this
> conversation because that means we can re-connect.

If I'm still discussing it, it's much because there are many very
valuable people in the Solaris community that I've been interacting
wxith for years, both from and outside Sun. Still, my position is only
mine, from where I stand, I don't believe I can change much.

> We start building a user community. We engage application and package
> developers. We start taking a new class of contributions. We try to
> create systems to better manager the contributions we are already
> getting. We keep adding layers of the community on top, or around, what
> we have already built. We keep upgrading the website. We get our content
> management system and wiki. We localize the site. We meet more people.
> We move more infrastructure outside and finish the scm migration. We
> solve the bug problem. Etc. Etc. Etc. We just keep going. All of these
> things -- and many more -- are absolutely perfect community building
> opportunities. All of them. I don't view any of them negatively.

They're positive, I'd like to know who's going to benefit from it.
Participating in a project with great people is a tremendous experience,
still, my time is more limited than what I'd like (too much commuting in
my current job).
And if Sun can't do all those things with their own time and money, and
need free contributions from outside, maybe some more respe

> Sorry, my friend. You are a little out of my league on the various
> products and versions and such. :) Smarter people than I would have to
> offer come context here.

Well, I'd say «more knowledgeable» rather than «smarter». But yes, I
need to hear from them. Because the complete lack of an upgrade plan to
OpenSolaris, even coming from Solaris, is quite an issue.
And of course, where is the support? Will I be able to give money to
Sun, and then call them and get answers?

The majority of people working on OpenSolaris are also Sun employees, so
for them, the choice is obvious, it's what pays their bills. But for me,
so far, it's my knowledge in Solaris that get me a salary.
OpenSolaris is a nice toy, but not one to make a living out of it.

Attracting hobbyists and developers from the FOSS world is very much
needed and useful, but in the end, since Sun has no plan to turn into
Debian AFAICT, their customers will have a say at some point.

> And, I don't know, perhaps we'll come out of this stronger
> and better able to grow.

I hope so. There is a lot of room for great achievements here, and well,
the road is not traced. About that, I'm a bit worried about those
striving to make OpenSolaris more like Linux. It shouldn't, because it's
not, in any aspect (and there, I'm disagreeing both with some people on
the Indiana m/l as well as those FOSS commentators, who find Linux is
the perfect role model in every aspect, technical as well as ideological).
I hope we'll find a way.

> You have brought up a lot of good points. I don't have all the answers
> (or necessarily good answers), but I hope you feel I'm being straight
> with you. I'm just trying to move this forward to the next step and take
> one step at a time ...

Well, answers at all are needed, even if not good. Like, for example, n
official Sun statement saying that Indiana/OpenSolaris will not be
commercially supported, or will be the way SX was, and that there is no
current roadmap, or that there is one with Solaris 11 in 2011.
I'd like to know when some bits of OpenSolaris are going into production.

Thanks for your answer, Jim.

Laurent
--
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\ G11N http://fr.opensolaris.org | Bull Services http://www.bull.com
/ FOSUG http://guses.org |

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moinakg

Posts: 1,223
From: India

Registered: 7/15/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 7:44 AM

in response to: Laurent Blume

Laurent Blume wrote:
> I hope my answers below make sense. This topic is not one with clear-cut
> answers, and finding balance is difficult.
>
> Jim Grisanzio a écrit :
>
>
> [...]
>> Right. It has changed. We started as a community and a bunch of source
>> code, some distros and people came along, and now we are adding a new
>> distro from which other distros can be built.
>>
> [snip]
>
> So, it really feels that Sun is positioning itself as *the* leader of
> the OpenSolaris Community. Asserting its trademarks and all. It still
> makes me uneasy. I'll wait to see if there are really new distros
> successfully sprouting from it.
>

Yes, but note also that BeleniX has already successfully utilized the
Indiana
bits to become a source-level derivative and I guess Milax is using
some of
the stuff as well.

Regards,
Moinak.

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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 30, 2008 7:04 AM

in response to: Laurent Blume

Laurent Blume wrote:
> Oh, I agree, we do have opinions! But how does one gets selected to
> become reality?
>

This is a very important question. We need to work toward a position
where we all accept the notion that those who do the work get the say.
But we need to always be increasing the number of people doing the work,
so we are growing and distributing the opportunity for leadership. The
trouble is that we are not fully open yet, so sometimes those doing the
work are inside and you can't see them. Big bug. But over time as we
move development outside that's the concept I think is most workable,
and I think it's already visible in those areas where we are open. The
flip side to that, however, is building consensus. I think the more work
you do across the project the more consensus you have the ability to
build for your ideas. I think at this point we need to recognize both
concepts.

Regarding getting an idea selected ... here's how:

"In software, ideas are expressed in *code*. The implementation *is* the
idea." -- Bryan Cantrill,
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-May/000683.html

"Having your voice listened to is a privilege, not a right, and it's a
privilege that's earned in proportion to the contribution level, not
volume level." -- Alan Burlison,
http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2007-October/002556.html

Regarding Bryan's quote, you can substitute any artifact of work for
"code" and the concept still holds beautifully.

To me, these two quotes illustrate the only way to get an opinion noticed.

Jim

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kvarma

Posts: 4
From: US

Registered: 5/17/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 30, 2008 11:24 AM

in response to: Laurent Blume

>>> And, after Indiana/OpenSolaris ships next month - then what? My
>>> production systems are running Solaris. How will they benefit
>>> from OpenSolaris? What's the roadmap? Will there be patches to
>>> S10? Or some Solaris Next? Solaris 10 is getting old, and I feel
>>> the pressure to upgrade it. To what? I often read comments from
>>> Sun engineers advising to go to SXCR or Indiana/OpenSolaris. If
>>> I've got to put *my* job on the frontline, I'll got for something
>>> more reasonable, like RHEL, thank you.
>>
>> Sorry, my friend. You are a little out of my league on the various
>> products and versions and such. :) Smarter people than I would have
>> to offer come context here.
>
> Well, I'd say «more knowledgeable» rather than «smarter». But yes, I
> need to hear from them. Because the complete lack of an upgrade plan
> to OpenSolaris, even coming from Solaris, is quite an issue. And of
> course, where is the support? Will I be able to give money to Sun,
> and then call them and get answers?

I'll pretend to be more knowledgeable (hard to trump Jim even on that
really):

The latest and fifth Solaris 10 update, Solaris 10 5/08, just became
generally available (i.e. media kits started shipping worldwide) on
4/28/08. It has been available for download 4/15 onwards.

Per the Solaris OS life cycle model (sun.com/solaris/lifecycle.xml),
updates to milestone releases (e.g. Solaris 10) happen while it is
generally available. Then, in its Retirement Phase 1, patches are still
made available though no more updates (roll up of patches, enhancements,
new features, etc.) are planned. People get advance notice and details
of upcoming new milestone releases in multiple ways - the early access
(e.g. beta) programs, newsletters, via their account team, etc.

Kamal

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alanc

Posts: 5,504
From: US

Registered: 3/9/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 30, 2008 11:30 AM

in response to: kvarma

Kamal K. Varma wrote:
>>>> And, after Indiana/OpenSolaris ships next month - then what? My
>>>> production systems are running Solaris. How will they benefit
>>>> from OpenSolaris? What's the roadmap? Will there be patches to
>>>> S10? Or some Solaris Next? Solaris 10 is getting old, and I feel
>>>> the pressure to upgrade it. To what? I often read comments from
>>>> Sun engineers advising to go to SXCR or Indiana/OpenSolaris. If
>>>> I've got to put *my* job on the frontline, I'll got for something
>>>> more reasonable, like RHEL, thank you.
>>> Sorry, my friend. You are a little out of my league on the various
>>> products and versions and such. :) Smarter people than I would have
>>> to offer come context here.
>> Well, I'd say «more knowledgeable» rather than «smarter». But yes, I
>> need to hear from them. Because the complete lack of an upgrade plan
>> to OpenSolaris, even coming from Solaris, is quite an issue. And of
>> course, where is the support? Will I be able to give money to Sun,
>> and then call them and get answers?
>
> I'll pretend to be more knowledgeable (hard to trump Jim even on that
> really):
>
> The latest and fifth Solaris 10 update, Solaris 10 5/08, just became
> generally available (i.e. media kits started shipping worldwide) on
> 4/28/08. It has been available for download 4/15 onwards.
>
> Per the Solaris OS life cycle model (sun.com/solaris/lifecycle.xml),
> updates to milestone releases (e.g. Solaris 10) happen while it is
> generally available. Then, in its Retirement Phase 1, patches are still
> made available though no more updates (roll up of patches, enhancements,
> new features, etc.) are planned. People get advance notice and details
> of upcoming new milestone releases in multiple ways - the early access
> (e.g. beta) programs, newsletters, via their account team, etc.

But none of that has any relationship to the new OpenSolaris Operating
System, for which the first release is OpenSolaris 2008.05, and for which
support details (which will be different than Solaris ones) will be
announced when it is released in May.

--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering

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kvarma

Posts: 4
From: US

Registered: 5/17/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 30, 2008 11:38 AM

in response to: alanc

Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Kamal K. Varma wrote:
>>>>> And, after Indiana/OpenSolaris ships next month - then what? My
>>>>> production systems are running Solaris. How will they benefit
>>>>> from OpenSolaris? What's the roadmap? Will there be patches to
>>>>> S10? Or some Solaris Next? Solaris 10 is getting old, and I feel
>>>>> the pressure to upgrade it. To what? I often read comments from
>>>>> Sun engineers advising to go to SXCR or Indiana/OpenSolaris. If
>>>>> I've got to put *my* job on the frontline, I'll got for something
>>>>> more reasonable, like RHEL, thank you.
>>>> Sorry, my friend. You are a little out of my league on the various
>>>> products and versions and such. :) Smarter people than I would have
>>>> to offer come context here.
>>> Well, I'd say «more knowledgeable» rather than «smarter». But yes, I
>>> need to hear from them. Because the complete lack of an upgrade plan
>>> to OpenSolaris, even coming from Solaris, is quite an issue. And of
>>> course, where is the support? Will I be able to give money to Sun,
>>> and then call them and get answers?
>> I'll pretend to be more knowledgeable (hard to trump Jim even on that
>> really):
>>
>> The latest and fifth Solaris 10 update, Solaris 10 5/08, just became
>> generally available (i.e. media kits started shipping worldwide) on
>> 4/28/08. It has been available for download 4/15 onwards.
>>
>> Per the Solaris OS life cycle model (sun.com/solaris/lifecycle.xml),
>> updates to milestone releases (e.g. Solaris 10) happen while it is
>> generally available. Then, in its Retirement Phase 1, patches are still
>> made available though no more updates (roll up of patches, enhancements,
>> new features, etc.) are planned. People get advance notice and details
>> of upcoming new milestone releases in multiple ways - the early access
>> (e.g. beta) programs, newsletters, via their account team, etc.
>
> But none of that has any relationship to the new OpenSolaris Operating
> System, for which the first release is OpenSolaris 2008.05, and for which
> support details (which will be different than Solaris ones) will be
> announced when it is released in May.
>

Thanks Alan for the clarification. My comments were indeed only Solaris
related, and not meant to crossover to OpenSolaris in any way.
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droberts

Posts: 40
From: US

Registered: 2/27/08

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 30, 2008 12:40 PM

in response to: kvarma

>>>>> And, after Indiana/OpenSolaris ships next month - then what? My
>>>>> production systems are running Solaris. How will they benefit
>>>>> from OpenSolaris? What's the roadmap? Will there be patches to
>>>>> S10? Or some Solaris Next? Solaris 10 is getting old, and I feel
>>>>> the pressure to upgrade it. To what? I often read comments from
>>>>> Sun engineers advising to go to SXCR or Indiana/OpenSolaris.

Going back to the original questions...

Solaris 10 will continue to have Updates to: support the latest
hardware, continue to improve stability, and to port a few key features
developed in the OpenSolaris Community back to Solaris 10 (ZFS boot, key
networking advancements, etc.). Sun will also make new products
available based on OpenSolaris technology designed to work with Solaris
10 like our NAS appliance, or our xVM Server appliance. And there will
be a future version of Solaris based on one of the 6 month releases of
OpenSolaris, which will bring the latest advances from the broad
OpenSolaris community to Solaris customers.

Also, let me be clear, the different releases of the OpenSolaris OS are
not the upgrade path for customers of Solaris 10 in the majority of
cases. Future versions of Solaris will be that path, particularly for
anyone that needs long term support (up to 10 years or more).

Though we are certainly aware that some customers will want to move
certain applications or new systems to OpenSolaris to take advantage of
the latest innovation as soon as possible. Which is one of the reasons
why we are offering full production support right away.

The OpenSolaris 2008.05 release is the upgrade path for customers of
Solaris Express Developer Edition 1/08, as we will no longer produce a
Solaris Express Developer Edition product moving forward.

Solaris Express Community Edition builds will continue without changes
for some time.

Dan
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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 1:39 AM

in response to: droberts

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:

I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
but because feedback on how we function has been requested.

> Solaris 10 will continue to have Updates to: support the latest
> hardware, continue to improve stability, and to port a few key features
> developed in the OpenSolaris Community back to Solaris 10 (ZFS boot, key
> networking advancements, etc.). Sun will also make new products
> available based on OpenSolaris technology designed to work with Solaris
> 10 like our NAS appliance, or our xVM Server appliance. And there will
> be a future version of Solaris based on one of the 6 month releases of
> OpenSolaris, which will bring the latest advances from the broad
> OpenSolaris community to Solaris customers.
>
> Also, let me be clear, the different releases of the OpenSolaris OS are
> not the upgrade path for customers of Solaris 10 in the majority of
> cases. Future versions of Solaris will be that path, particularly for
> anyone that needs long term support (up to 10 years or more).

Solaris customers aren't concerned that the OpenSolaris OS is their
upgrade path; they're concerned that future versions of Solaris (which
will be) will look like the OpenSolaris OS. That is exactly what we
keep getting told too:
http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=205633#205633

Now you are saying a different thing. The fact that Sun don't seem to
be able to get the message consistent even internally is a large reason
why the community growth is, or is perceived to be, faltering; at this
point in time, people don't know what they're building, or what the
development process is supposed to look like - or rather they do, but
some folk who just released an OS called OpenSolaris aren't following it.

The ARC don't have a clue what they're supposed to be doing and have, on
numerous occasions, just looked like throwing in the towel. The
documented development process requires ARC review unless you are in a
particular golden Community Group, it seems. This has been excused with
"oh, it's just a prototype" for a long time, but come Monday I don't
think we're in prototype anymore, Toto.

Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.

> Though we are certainly aware that some customers will want to move
> certain applications or new systems to OpenSolaris to take advantage of
> the latest innovation as soon as possible. Which is one of the reasons
> why we are offering full production support right away.

Does the existence of production support imply that Indiana/OpenSolaris
2005.08 is considered stable wrt interfaces and so on?

> Solaris Express Community Edition builds will continue without changes
> for some time.

I am very glad to hear that.

As for the wider issues of community building, the Doc community doesn't
have a Community leader any more; we need one desperately, and what's
more, they pretty much must be internal to Sun in order to function
properly. That alone speaks volumes about why the community might be
having problems.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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moinakg

Posts: 1,223
From: India

Registered: 7/15/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 2:39 AM

in response to: ceri

Ceri Davies wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>
> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>
>
> [...]
> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>
>

Which code repository are you referring to ?

Regards,
Moinak.

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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 2:47 AM

in response to: moinakg

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>
>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>
>> [...]
>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>
>>
>
> Which code repository are you referring to ?

The one where Indiana development is being done.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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moinakg

Posts: 1,223
From: India

Registered: 7/15/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 3:58 AM

in response to: ceri

Ceri Davies wrote:
> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>
>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
>>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
>>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
>>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Which code repository are you referring to ?
>>
>
> The one where Indiana development is being done.
>

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
hg.opensolaris.org/hg/caiman

However I agree, these should find a mention in the Caiman front page.

Regards,
Moinak.

> Ceri
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> advocacy-discuss mailing list
> advocacy-discuss at opensolaris dot org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy-discuss
>

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Michal Bielicki
cypromis@opensolaris...

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 3:59 AM

in response to: moinakg

On 1 May 2008, at 13:00, Moinak Ghosh wrote:

> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>
>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>>>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there
>>>> will
>>>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>>>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>>>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win
>>>> minds from
>>>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't
>>>> even
>>>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Which code repository are you referring to ?
>>>
>>
>> The one where Indiana development is being done.
>>
>
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
> hg.opensolaris.org/hg/caiman
>
> However I agree, these should find a mention in the Caiman front
> page.
>
> Regards,
> Moinak.
>
>> Ceri
>>

It should find a mention in the indiana page, ie. if you want the
sourcecode for indiana, here is how to get it. Can we go back to
having things simple ?

Michal Bielicki
OpenSolaris Core Contributor
Software Porters Community Leader

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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 4:10 AM

in response to: moinakg

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 04:30:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>
>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>>>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
>>>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>>>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>>>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
>>>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
>>>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Which code repository are you referring to ?
>>>
>>
>> The one where Indiana development is being done.
>>
>
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
> hg.opensolaris.org/hg/caiman
>
> However I agree, these should find a mention in the Caiman front page.

That looks an awful lot like just an installer. I'm talking about a
repository where one can check out the source for the bits on the CD.
I'm pretty sure that there isn't one.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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moinakg

Posts: 1,223
From: India

Registered: 7/15/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 4:58 AM

in response to: ceri

Ceri Davies wrote:
> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 04:30:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>
>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>>>>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
>>>>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>>>>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>>>>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
>>>>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
>>>>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Which code repository are you referring to ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The one where Indiana development is being done.
>>>
>>>
>> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
>> hg.opensolaris.org/hg/caiman
>>
>> However I agree, these should find a mention in the Caiman front page.
>>
>
> That looks an awful lot like just an installer. I'm talking about a
> repository where one can check out the source for the bits on the CD.
> I'm pretty sure that there isn't one.
>

There is not one but several. Indiana pulls it's packages from a bunch
of consolidations. There is no single repository that you can look into:

ON
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/
hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/onnv/onnv-gate

SFW
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/sfw/usr/src/
http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/sfw/

FOX
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/fox/fox-gate/
hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/fox/fox-gate

JDS
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/jds/
svn co svn+ssh://anon at svn dot opensolaris dot
org/svn/jds/spec-files/trunk spec-files

IPS
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/pkg/
hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/pkg/gate

G11N
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/nv-g11n/
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nv-g11n/documents/repository/

Network Storage
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nws/
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nws/nws-src-20080414.tar.bz2

Docs
http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/docs/
http://dlc.sun.com/osol/docs/downloads/current/

Man pages
http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/manpages/
http://dlc.sun.com/osol/man/downloads/current

Developer Product Tools
http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/devpro/

Caiman (Umbrella Project, includes installer, distro constructor etc.)
http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/caiman

There are a few bits and pieces in the form of redistributable binaries
for which no source is available yet.

Regards,
Moinak.

> Ceri
>

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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 5:11 AM

in response to: moinakg

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 05:29:50PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> On Thu, May**** 2008 at 04:30:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>
>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>>>>>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
>>>>>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>>>>>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>>>>>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
>>>>>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
>>>>>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Which code repository are you referring to ?
>>>>>
>>>> The one where Indiana development is being done.
>>>>
>>> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
>>> hg.opensolaris.org/hg/caiman
>>>
>>> However I agree, these should find a mention in the Caiman front page.
>>>
>>
>> That looks an awful lot like just an installer. I'm talking about a
>> repository where one can check out the source for the bits on the CD.
>> I'm pretty sure that there isn't one.
>>
>
> There is not one but several. Indiana pulls it's packages from a bunch
> of consolidations. There is no single repository that you can look into:
>
> ON
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/onnv/onnv-gate
>
> SFW
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/sfw/usr/src/
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/sfw/
>
> FOX
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/fox/fox-gate/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/fox/fox-gate
>
> JDS
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/jds/
> svn co svn+ssh://anon at svn dot opensolaris dot
> org/svn/jds/spec-files/trunk spec-files
>
> IPS
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/pkg/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/pkg/gate
>
> G11N
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/nv-g11n/
> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nv-g11n/documents/repository/
>
> Network Storage
> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nws/
> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nws/nws-src-20080414.tar.bz2
>
> Docs
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/docs/
> http://dlc.sun.com/osol/docs/downloads/current/
>
> Man pages
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/manpages/
> http://dlc.sun.com/osol/man/downloads/current
>
> Developer Product Tools
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/devpro/
>
> Caiman (Umbrella Project, includes installer, distro constructor etc.)
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/caiman
>
> There are a few bits and pieces in the form of redistributable binaries
> for which no source is available yet.

My point being that this is going to go down like a **** in a lift.

Thanks for the pointers though.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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jimgris

Posts: 3,835
From: JP

Registered: 4/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 5:24 AM

in response to: ceri

Ceri Davies wrote:
> My point being that this is going****go down like a **** in a lift.

Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment given the hard work
many people have been putting into making this initial release
successful. It's obviously a work in progress, and great strides have
been made in a relatively short amount of time. Also, your comment is
not acceptable for advocacy-discuss.

Jim
--
http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris/
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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 6:26 AM

in response to: jimgris

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:24:44PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> Ceri Davies wrote:
>> My point being that this is going to go down like a **** in a lift.
>
> Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment given the hard work many
> people have been putting into making this initial release successful. It's
> obviously a work in progress, and great strides have been made in a
> relatively short amount of time.

I know this, the target audience do not. It is a barrier to acceptance
and adoption and this thread is all about that, as I understand it.

> Also, your comment is not acceptable for advocacy-discuss.

It is pointless to argue that, but I disagree. I suspect you are more
bothered by the sentiment.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 8:01 AM

in response to: ceri

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 02:26:57PM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:24:44PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> > Ceri Davies wrote:
> >> My point being that this is going to go down like a **** in a lift.
> >
> > Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment given the hard work many
> > people have been putting into making this initial release successful. It's
> > obviously a work in progress, and great strides have been made in a
> > relatively short amount of time.
>
> I know this, the target audience do not. It is a barrier to acceptance
> and adoption and this thread is all about that, as I understand it.

Allow me to expand on this, since I know at least yourself and another
man I respect are misinterpreting my intent.

I like the OpenSolaris community and the people in it. I see and
very much appreciate the hard work that goes on, and have contributed
code, documentation work, time and effort everywhere from shielding folk
who stray into #opensolaris from hostility there to making presentations
and talking it up locally, and more. Additionally, while I have no
intent of deploying it in my business, I also know and appreciate that a
large number of people have spent inhuman amounts of work on getting the
OpenSolaris 2008.05 release out of the door, I really do.

However, as both a long time Sun customer across two industries
(telecoms and FE) and a member of a reasonably large open source
project (FreeBSD) for many years already, I think I have some useful
experience. So when you specifically asked "we are doing some great
things here as a community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as
it should. Why?", I thought you might be soliciting opinion. You asked.

Unfortunately, that opinion is that the folks being targeted either
a) hate Sun and all its offspring, b) won't look until everything
is GPL, c) certainly won't be happy that "Open"Solaris can't easily be
checked out, d) really don't care who worked how hard, e) only run
Linux, f) looked at the community and couldn't work out how to
contribute or g) some combination of the above.

If we really want to go after those folk, we need to come up with
responses and "fixes" to those things above that we can do something
about. Unfortunately, "we worked really hard" isn't a response that
will cut it with these folk, I'm really sorry, but it isn't; see d)
above. If things don't work the way they expect, then they'll likely
not stick around, it's the harsh reality and I'm only saying so because
you specifically asked. Only the worst of friends will let you walk
around with spinach in your teeth, after all.

Now, I will continue to work on the bits that I can work on because it's
going to require a lot more work to surmount all of the above. Unless,
of course, you still think that we should just kick dissidents like me out,
in which case I won't need pushing - I have a family I could be spending the
time with, after all.

As part of that hard work, we have to listen to things that we don't
like hearing, and then keep making the steps without expecting those
who don't know us to applaud how much has been done already. We know,
we can be proud of what's been done, but working hard isn't a goal in
itself.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 8:55 AM

in response to: ceri

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 02:26:57PM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
> > On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:24:44PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
> > > Ceri Davies wrote:
> > >> My point being that this is going to go down like a **** in a lift.
> > >
> > > Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment given the hard work many
> > > people have been putting into making this initial release successful. It's
> > > obviously a work in progress, and great strides have been made in a
> > > relatively short amount of time.
> >
> > I know this, the target audience do not. It is a barrier to acceptance
> > and adoption and this thread is all about that, as I understand it.
>
> Allow me to expand on this, since I know at least yourself and another
> man I respect are misinterpreting my intent.
>
> I like the OpenSolaris community and the people in it. I see and
> very much appreciate the hard work that goes on, and have contributed
> code, documentation work, time and effort everywhere from shielding folk
> who stray into #opensolaris from hostility there to making presentations
> and talking it up locally, and more. Additionally, while I have no
> intent of deploying it in my business, I also know and appreciate that a
> large number of people have spent inhuman amounts of work on getting the
> OpenSolaris 2008.05 release out of the door, I really do.
>
> However, as both a long time Sun customer across two industries
> (telecoms and FE) and a member of a reasonably large open source
> project (FreeBSD) for many years already, I think I have some useful
> experience. So when you specifically asked "we are doing some great
> things here as a community, and that's not getting out nearly as much as
> it should. Why?", I thought you might be soliciting opinion. You asked.
>
> Unfortunately, that opinion is that the folks being targeted either
> a) hate Sun and all its offspring, b) won't look until everything
> is GPL, c) certainly won't be happy that "Open"Solaris can't easily be
> checked out, d) really don't care who worked how hard, e) only run
> Linux, f) looked at the community and couldn't work out how to
> contribute or g) some combination of the above.

I'm pretty sure that group being targeted is a mix of developers and
not "just GNU/Linux developers."

I think the group being targeted is the "allows me to be productive in
a way similar to other, modern platforms using the same tools and
processes while taking advantage of things special to Solaris."

> As part of that hard work, we have to listen to things that we don't
> like hearing, and then keep making the steps without expecting those
> who don't know us to applaud how much has been done already. We know,
> we can be proud of what's been done, but working hard isn't a goal in
> itself.

There's nothing wrong with saying things that someone needs to hear,
but those things need to be presented in a positive, encouraging
manner.

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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plocher

Posts: 1,495
From:

Registered: 5/18/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 9:41 AM

in response to: Shawn Walker

Shawn Walker wrote:
> There's nothing wrong with saying things that someone needs to hear,
> but those things need to be presented in a positive, encouraging
> manner.

The corollary is, of course, that not liking the way something was
said doesn't mean you don't need to listen. (it also doesn't mean
you need to Reply-All :-)

While courtesy is the lubrication that keeps societies functioning
smoothly, problems usually arise both from having too little as well
as having too much of it.

Being blunt - "hey, why isn't the Emperor wearing any clothes?" - is
sometimes a much needed wake up call that tells us that we have been
enjoying the koolaid too much.

I thought Ceri's comments were pretty much on track. The group he
points out may not be the entirety of the target OpenSolaris community,
but they are early technical adopters, thought leaders and influencers
in the real world where OpenSolaris (our community and its projects)
lives.

We should not fixate on them, but we ignore them at our peril.

-John (one of those old farts in the lift)

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webmink

Posts: 689
From: GB

Registered: 5/18/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 9:15 AM

in response to: ceri

On May 1, 2008, at 08:01, Ceri Davies wrote:

> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 02:26:57PM +0100, Ceri Davies wrote:
>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:24:44PM +0900, Jim Grisanzio wrote:
>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>> My point being that this is going to go down like a **** in a lift.
>>>
>>> Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment given the hard
>>> work many
>>> people have been putting into making this initial release
>>> successful. It's
>>> obviously a work in progress, and great strides have been made in a
>>> relatively short amount of time.
>>
>> I know this, the target audience do not. It is a barrier to
>> acceptance
>> and adoption and this thread is all about that, as I understand it.
>
> Allow me to expand on this, since I know at least yourself and another
> man I respect are misinterpreting my intent.
>
> I like the OpenSolaris community and the people in it. I see and
> very much appreciate the hard work that goes on, and have contributed
> code, documentation work, time and effort everywhere from shielding
> folk
> who stray into #opensolaris from hostility there to making
> presentations
> and talking it up locally, and more. Additionally, while I have no
> intent of deploying it in my business, I also know and appreciate
> that a
> large number of people have spent inhuman amounts of work on getting
> the
> OpenSolaris 2008.05 release out of the door, I really do.
>
> However, as both a long time Sun customer across two industries
> (telecoms and FE) and a member of a reasonably large open source
> project (FreeBSD) for many years already, I think I have some useful
> experience. So when you specifically asked "we are doing some great
> things here as a community, and that's not getting out nearly as
> much as
> it should. Why?", I thought you might be soliciting opinion. You
> asked.
>
> Unfortunately, that opinion is that the folks being targeted either
> a) hate Sun and all its offspring, b) won't look until everything
> is GPL, c) certainly won't be happy that "Open"Solaris can't easily be
> checked out, d) really don't care who worked how hard, e) only run
> Linux, f) looked at the community and couldn't work out how to
> contribute or g) some combination of the above.
>
> If we really want to go after those folk, we need to come up with
> responses and "fixes" to those things above that we can do something
> about. Unfortunately, "we worked really hard" isn't a response that
> will cut it with these folk, I'm really sorry, but it isn't; see d)
> above. If things don't work the way they expect, then they'll likely
> not stick around, it's the harsh reality and I'm only saying so
> because
> you specifically asked. Only the worst of friends will let you walk
> around with spinach in your teeth, after all.
>
> Now, I will continue to work on the bits that I can work on because
> it's
> going to require a lot more work to surmount all of the above.
> Unless,
> of course, you still think that we should just kick dissidents like
> me out,
> in which case I won't need pushing - I have a family I could be
> spending the
> time with, after all.
>
> As part of that hard work, we have to listen to things that we don't
> like hearing, and then keep making the steps without expecting those
> who don't know us to applaud how much has been done already. We know,
> we can be proud of what's been done, but working hard isn't a goal in
> itself.
>
> Ceri

Thanks, Ceri, I appreciate the explanation and I agree with the
concern for this specific audience. I'm not sure of the extent to
which this is actually Sun's target audience; I'll be raising the
subject with Sun's exec liaison (Tim Cramer) at the summit thsi weekend.

S.

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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 1:15 PM

in response to: webmink

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 09:15:02AM -0700, Simon Phipps wrote:

> Thanks, Ceri, I appreciate the explanation and I agree with the concern for
> this specific audience. I'm not sure of the extent to which this is
> actually Sun's target audience; I'll be raising the subject with Sun's exec
> liaison (Tim Cramer) at the summit thsi weekend.

Thanks. With respect to the question over audience, I'll refer back to
my original mail where I said that there is confusion over what we're
actually building at the moment. I believe that stems from the fact
the current release of OpenSolaris has its origins in Sun, rather than
the community, and that Sun have failed to adequately communicate their
goals.

I'm looking forward to seeing that changing, both from Sun loosening
their grip on the OpenSolaris OS now that they've moulded it to the
general shape they want and preferably starting to participate in the
same way that we are expected to (it's seriously the time for ARC of the
Indiana bits, particularly now that we know it will be Solaris Next) and
also in the community setting direction ourselves and making some bold
strides of our own.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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rlhamil

Posts: 1,580
From: US

Registered: 6/14/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 6:36 AM

in response to: jimgris
To: Communities » advocacy » discuss

> Ceri Davies wrote:
> > My point being that this is going to go down like a
[controversial expression deleted]
>
> Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment
> given the hard work
> many people have been putting into making this
> initial release
> successful. It's obviously a work in progress, and
> great strides have
> been made in a relatively short amount of time. Also,
> your comment is
> not acceptable for advocacy-discuss.

I do think it would be nice if a big high-visibility release was
accompanied by a _matching_ tarball of all the source (and
closed binaries, as applicable) and tools needed to rebuild it.
IMO, _that_, in if not _one_ wget, at least a _very_short_list_
of commands that fetches it all, corresponding to the release,
is what many people that are say 3/4 using and 1/4 trying
to fix/enhance/understand, might want. With the caveat that
before they get too carried away, they might want to see if
whatever they want to do hasn't already been done in the latest&greatest,
and pointers like you gave to help them find same.

Or to put it another way, from an external perspective, I think the
process and information needed to set up a suitable build system and retrieve
all the bits suitable to (re)build a particular version, while somewhat documented,
need to be simpler, better documented, more visible, and more readily
perceived as transparent. That holds both for recent releases subject to some
level of support, as well as the bleeding edge, IMO.

Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 6:53 AM

in response to: rlhamil

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Richard L. Hamilton <rlhamil at smart dot net> wrote:
> > Ceri Davies wrote:
> > > My point being that this is going to go down like a
> [controversial expression deleted]
>
> >
> > Hello, Ceri. That's really an unfortunate comment
> > given the hard work
> > many people have been putting into making this
> > initial release
> > successful. It's obviously a work in progress, and
> > great strides have
> > been made in a relatively short amount of time. Also,
> > your comment is
> > not acceptable for advocacy-discuss.
>
> I do think it would be nice if a big high-visibility release was
> accompanied by a _matching_ tarball of all the source (and
> closed binaries, as applicable) and tools needed to rebuild it.
> IMO, _that_, in if not _one_ wget, at least a _very_short_list_
> of commands that fetches it all, corresponding to the release,
> is what many people that are say 3/4 using and 1/4 trying
> to fix/enhance/understand, might want. With the caveat that
> before they get too carried away, they might want to see if
> whatever they want to do hasn't already been done in the latest&greatest,
> and pointers like you gave to help them find same.
>
> Or to put it another way, from an external perspective, I think the
> process and information needed to set up a suitable build system and retrieve
> all the bits suitable to (re)build a particular version, while somewhat documented,
> need to be simpler, better documented, more visible, and more readily
> perceived as transparent. That holds both for recent releases subject to some
> level of support, as well as the bleeding edge, IMO.

The primary issue with that, is that it really isn't practical to have
a single tarball of all the source.

OpenSolaris is comprised of numerous consolidations that each use
their own software build and management mechanisms.

The tarball would be gigabytes or larger in size and I'm not even sure
how you would organise it.

While many of the larger components do have well-documented build
systems, etc. I don't think it is practical, at this time, to expect
something unified.

With that said, one of the goals of the Distribution Community Group
is to see that as much documentation as possible is provided so that
others can build their own OpenSolaris distributions. So, you can look
forward to this documentation eventually being available. However, we
need volunteers to help produce it! I would invite anyone interested
to join the distribution-discuss mailing list and participate in the
Distribution CG.

Cheers,
--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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Stephen Lau
stevel@opensolaris.org

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 7:19 AM

in response to: Shawn Walker

Shawn Walker wrote:
> The primary issue with that, is that it really isn't practical to have
> a single tarball of all the source.
>
> OpenSolaris is comprised of numerous consolidations that each use
> their own software build and management mechanisms.
>
> The tarball would be gigabytes or larger in size and I'm not even sure
> how you would organise it.
>
> While many of the larger components do have well-documented build
> systems, etc. I don't think it is practical, at this time, to expect
> something unified.
>
> With that said, one of the goals of the Distribution Community Group
> is to see that as much documentation as possible is provided so that
> others can build their own OpenSolaris distributions. So, you can look
> forward to this documentation eventually being available. However, we
> need volunteers to help produce it! I would invite anyone interested
> to join the distribution-discuss mailing list and participate in the
> Distribution CG.
>
> Cheers,
>

I don't think it's that unreasonable (yes, realising you said
"practical" not "reasonable")... many other Linux distros do this (via
shipping SRPMS, etc. on a DVD or at least making them available).

cheers,
steve

--
stephen lau | stevel at opensolaris dot org | www.whacked.net

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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 8:39 AM

in response to: Stephen Lau

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Stephen Lau <stevel at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> Shawn Walker wrote:
>
> > The primary issue with that, is that it really isn't practical to have
> > a single tarball of all the source.
> >
> > OpenSolaris is comprised of numerous consolidations that each use
> > their own software build and management mechanisms.
> >
> > The tarball would be gigabytes or larger in size and I'm not even sure
> > how you would organise it.
> >
> > While many of the larger components do have well-documented build
> > systems, etc. I don't think it is practical, at this time, to expect
> > something unified.
> >
> > With that said, one of the goals of the Distribution Community Group
> > is to see that as much documentation as possible is provided so that
> > others can build their own OpenSolaris distributions. So, you can look
> > forward to this documentation eventually being available. However, we
> > need volunteers to help produce it! I would invite anyone interested
> > to join the distribution-discuss mailing list and participate in the
> > Distribution CG.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
>
> I don't think it's that unreasonable (yes, realising you said "practical"
> not "reasonable")... many other Linux distros do this (via shipping SRPMS,
> etc. on a DVD or at least making them available).

Indeed, I certainly don't believe it is unreasonable. But a single
tarball does seem a bit impractical.

Now, it does seem reasonable and practical to have a tarball of every
consolidation from which Indiana is built.

Though I know that would take quite a bit of work to ensure no private
build bits accidentally got sent out.

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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michelle

Posts: 1,271
From: US

Registered: 10/6/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 12:36 PM

in response to: moinakg

Moinak Ghosh wrote:
> Ceri Davies wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 04:30:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 03:10:36PM +0530, Moinak Ghosh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ceri Davies wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
>>>>>> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Not to mention that with the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05 there will
>>>>>> be a large number of folk who will want to check out the code
>>>>>> repository; when they're unable to do so, they will be confused and
>>>>>> probably annoyed. Pushing a release this hard to try and win minds from
>>>>>> what I call the GPL zealot set isn't doing to fly when they can't even
>>>>>> get the code. Just watch slashdot when they find out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Which code repository are you referring to ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The one where Indiana development is being done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
>>> hg.opensolaris.org/hg/caiman
>>>
>>> However I agree, these should find a mention in the Caiman front page.
>>>
>>>
>> That looks an awful lot like just an installer. I'm talking about a
>> repository where one can check out the source for the bits on the CD.
>> I'm pretty sure that there isn't one.
>>
>>
>
> There is not one but several. Indiana pulls it's packages from a bunch
> of consolidations. There is no single repository that you can look into:
>
> ON
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/onnv/onnv-gate
>
> SFW
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/sfw/usr/src/
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/sfw/
>
> FOX
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/fox/fox-gate/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/fox/fox-gate
>
> JDS
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/jds/
> svn co svn+ssh://anon at svn dot opensolaris dot
> org/svn/jds/spec-files/trunk spec-files
>
> IPS
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/pkg/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/pkg/gate
>
> G11N
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/nv-g11n/
> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nv-g11n/documents/repository/
>
> Network Storage
> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nws/
> http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nws/nws-src-20080414.tar.bz2
>
> Docs
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/docs/
> http://dlc.sun.com/osol/docs/downloads/current/
>
For completeness, the Indiana documentation source is located in a
Mercurial repository on the Indiana project here:
http://hg.opensolaris.org/sc/src/indiana/
Which is documented here:
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/documents/

Commit/Push notifications have been posted to indiana-discuss regularly
since we set up the repo in January.

-Michelle
> Man pages
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/manpages/
> http://dlc.sun.com/osol/man/downloads/current
>
> Developer Product Tools
> http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/devpro/
>
> Caiman (Umbrella Project, includes installer, distro constructor etc.)
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/caiman/
> hg clone ssh://anon at hg dot opensolaris dot org/hg/caiman
>
> There are a few bits and pieces in the form of redistributable binaries
> for which no source is available yet.
>
> Regards,
> Moinak.
>
>
>> Ceri
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> advocacy-discuss mailing list
> advocacy-discuss at opensolaris dot org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy-discuss
>

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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 6:03 AM

in response to: ceri

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
> > Though we are certainly aware that some customers will want to move
> > certain applications or new systems to OpenSolaris to take advantage of
> > the latest innovation as soon as possible. Which is one of the reasons
> > why we are offering full production support right away.
>
> Does the existence of production support imply that Indiana/OpenSolaris
> 2005.08 is considered stable wrt interfaces and so on?

I don't see how it necessarily implies so. Remember, SXDE had
commercial support available too, but things in are certainly not
guaranteed to be in Solaris for a long time.

It depends on what kind of support is being offered.

I wouldn't expect something beyond "developer support" to be offered
at this point, but only Sun knows what they'll do.

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 6:24 AM

in response to: Shawn Walker

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 08:03:18AM -0500, Shawn Walker wrote:
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
> > > Though we are certainly aware that some customers will want to move
> > > certain applications or new systems to OpenSolaris to take advantage of
> > > the latest innovation as soon as possible. Which is one of the reasons
> > > why we are offering full production support right away.
> >
> > Does the existence of production support imply that Indiana/OpenSolaris
> > 2005.08 is considered stable wrt interfaces and so on?
>
> I don't see how it necessarily implies so.

Nor I, hence the question.

> Remember, SXDE had
> commercial support available too, but things in are certainly not
> guaranteed to be in Solaris for a long time.

SXDE had been through ARC, it's different.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 6:30 AM

in response to: ceri

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 08:03:18AM -0500, Shawn Walker wrote:
> > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
> > > > Though we are certainly aware that some customers will want to move
> > > > certain applications or new systems to OpenSolaris to take advantage of
> > > > the latest innovation as soon as possible. Which is one of the reasons
> > > > why we are offering full production support right away.
> > >
> > > Does the existence of production support imply that Indiana/OpenSolaris
> > > 2005.08 is considered stable wrt interfaces and so on?
> >
> > I don't see how it necessarily implies so.
>
> Nor I, hence the question.
>
>
> > Remember, SXDE had
> > commercial support available too, but things in are certainly not
> > guaranteed to be in Solaris for a long time.
>
> SXDE had been through ARC, it's different.

ARC is not a magical process. It does not automatically mean something
is "blessed."

So, on the basis of ARC alone, no I don't believe it to be different.

--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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ceri

Posts: 383
From: GB

Registered: 10/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 6:34 AM

in response to: Shawn Walker

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 08:30:25AM -0500, Shawn Walker wrote:
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 08:03:18AM -0500, Shawn Walker wrote:
> > > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:39 AM, Ceri Davies <ceri at submonkey dot net> wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
> > > > > Though we are certainly aware that some customers will want to move
> > > > > certain applications or new systems to OpenSolaris to take advantage of
> > > > > the latest innovation as soon as possible. Which is one of the reasons
> > > > > why we are offering full production support right away.
> > > >
> > > > Does the existence of production support imply that Indiana/OpenSolaris
> > > > 2005.08 is considered stable wrt interfaces and so on?
> > >
> > > I don't see how it necessarily implies so.
> >
> > Nor I, hence the question.
> >
> > > Remember, SXDE had
> > > commercial support available too, but things in are certainly not
> > > guaranteed to be in Solaris for a long time.
> >
> > SXDE had been through ARC, it's different.
>
> ARC is not a magical process. It does not automatically mean something
> is "blessed."
>
> So, on the basis of ARC alone, no I don't believe it to be different.

It doesn't really matter.

Ceri
--
That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all.
-- Moliere
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alanc

Posts: 5,504
From: US

Registered: 3/9/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 8:45 AM

in response to: ceri

Ceri Davies wrote:
> SXDE had been through ARC, it's different.

Not all of it - it included previews like Sun Studio Express
that weren't ARC'ed yet.

--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering

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droberts

Posts: 40
From: US

Registered: 2/27/08

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 12:15 AM

in response to: Shawn Walker

Shawn Walker wrote:
> I wouldn't expect something beyond "developer support" to be offered
> at this point, but only Sun knows what they'll do.

For OpenSolaris 2008.05, we'll do quite a bit better than just developer
support! We'll have:

Sun Developer Expert Assistance (DEA) will be available for OpenSolaris
2008.05 (same support that was available for SXDE). DEA is email based
support around development of apps on various platforms, covers
installation, configuration, and code level support during development.

We'll offer End User subscription offerings at a couple of levels. An
OpenSolaris Essentials offering will include email based user support,
proactive notification of bugs or security issues (Sun Alerts). And,
we'll offer an OpenSolaris Production support offering that includes
24/7 phone based support with bug escalation capability in addition to
the Essentials features. These annual subscriptions will cover each 6
month release of OpenSolaris for 18 months.

And, through our metals contracts (Sun Spectrum) that cover both our
hardware and software, we'll offer support offerings on Sun Systems that
bundle Production subscriptions for OpenSolaris and hardware assurance.

Exact details for these offerings will be announced next week.

Dan
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droberts

Posts: 40
From: US

Registered: 2/27/08

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 1, 2008 11:47 PM

in response to: ceri

Ceri Davies wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:40:56PM -0700, Dan Roberts wrote:
>
> I'm throwing an oar in here, not to rag on Indiana/OpenSolaris,
> but because feedback on how we function has been requested.
>
>> Solaris 10 will continue to have Updates to: support the latest
>> hardware, continue to improve stability, and to port a few key features
>> developed in the OpenSolaris Community back to Solaris 10 (ZFS boot, key
>> networking advancements, etc.). Sun will also make new products
>> available based on OpenSolaris technology designed to work with Solaris
>> 10 like our NAS appliance, or our xVM Server appliance. And there will
>> be a future version of Solaris based on one of the 6 month releases of
>> OpenSolaris, which will bring the latest advances from the broad
>> OpenSolaris community to Solaris customers.
>>
>> Also, let me be clear, the different releases of the OpenSolaris OS are
>> not the upgrade path for customers of Solaris 10 in the majority of
>> cases. Future versions of Solaris will be that path, particularly for
>> anyone that needs long term support (up to 10 years or more).
>
> Solaris customers aren't concerned that the OpenSolaris OS is their
> upgrade path; they're concerned that future versions of Solaris (which
> will be) will look like the OpenSolaris OS. That is exactly what we
> keep getting told too:
> http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=205633#205633
>
> Now you are saying a different thing. The fact that Sun don't seem to
> be able to get the message consistent even internally is a large reason
> why the community growth is, or is perceived to be, faltering; at this
> point in time, people don't know what they're building, or what the
> development process is supposed to look like - or rather they do, but
> some folk who just released an OS called OpenSolaris aren't following it.

Be sure to note both paragraphs you quote above. In the paragraph
before the one you responded to, I say clearly that future versions of
Solaris will be based on OpenSolaris. The same thing Ian said. So I
don't see any confusion or conflict between the 2 statements.

Separately from all the conversations I've had with Solaris customers
(and I've had a LOT), they are more concerned about how quickly they can
get the new features/functions of OpenSolaris (IPS, ZFS as default,
great new desktop, etc.) in a release of Solaris. And as the
OpenSolaris release gains traction and continues to improve, I expect
that sentiment only to grow.

Are there some concerns, particularly around compatibility, of course.
However I think the team has done a very good job striking a good
balance between ensuring we're able to keep core compatibility in areas
like the c abi and IPS's ability to consume SVR4 packages, while
modernizing the environment around the core. And, because we have
Containers and the BrandZ framework, we'll be able to deliver a complete
Sol10 application environment on top of OpenSolaris (same thing we do
for Solaris 8 and 9 on Solaris 10).

Dan

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khb

Posts: 121
From:

Registered: 4/27/05

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 2, 2008 12:09 AM

in response to: droberts

On May 2, 2008, at 12:47 AM, Dan Roberts wrote:

> And, because we have
> Containers and the BrandZ framework, we'll be able to deliver a
> complete
> Sol10 application environment on top of OpenSolaris (same thing we do
> for Solaris 8 and 9 on Solaris 10)

I think that's a greatly unappreciated point.

--
Keith H. Bierman khbkhb at gmail dot com | AIM kbiermank
5430 Nassau Circle East |
Cherry Hills Village, CO 80113 | 303-997-2749
<speaking for myself*> Copyright 2008

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Laurent Blume
laurent@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: May 5, 2008 3:11 AM

in response to: khb

Keith Bierman a écrit :
> On May 2, 2008, at 12:47 AM, Dan Roberts wrote:
>
>> And, because we have
>> Containers and the BrandZ framework, we'll be able to deliver a
>> complete
>> Sol10 application environment on top of OpenSolaris (same thing we do
>> for Solaris 8 and 9 on Solaris 10)
>
> I think that's a greatly unappreciated point.
>

I trhink it's a mostly useless point, because to get real support for
applications running in such environments, you'll need to get them
validated for them.
Remember that third-party vendors don't even support running inside
VMWare without validating it.

So you'll need to get validation for every kind of host/brandz
combination. Who will pay for that?

I'm not denying it can be interesting in some small of little
consequence, or huge projects with lots of resources. But not for
wholesale deployment at this point.

Laurent
--
/ Leader de Projet & Communauté | I'm working, but not speaking for
\ G11N http://fr.opensolaris.org | Bull Services http://www.bull.com
/ FOSUG http://guses.org |
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Shawn Walker
swalker@opensolaris....

Re: Corporate Open Source
Posted: Apr 29, 2008 6:01 AM

in response to: Laurent Blume

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:39 AM, Laurent Blume <laurent at opensolaris dot org> wrote:
> Jim Grisanzio a écrit :
>
> > We seem to be in some blogs and on Slashdot recently -- and not
> > necessarily in nice ways.
> [snip]
>
> Jim - I find Ted's article rather relevant.
>
> Now, as a long-standing member of the Solaris, then OpenSolaris
> community, I'm completely in the dark as to where this community is going.
>
> First, what does OpenSolaris means? It's not what it was just one year
> ago. Will it be still the same in one year from now? I doubt it.
> Sun managed to kill all the buzz about the other OpenSolaris distros.

Pardon, but I think you're wrong about that. Look at just about any
slashdot, OSNews, or other website article that mentions OpenSolaris.
You'll always find someone that talks about Nexenta, Belenix, etc.

In addition to that, the Distribution CG has just sponsored a new
OpenSolaris distribution called "Milax" which you can find out more
about here:

http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/milax/

Whatever Sun does is likely to spawn a flurry of press-related
activity, that's only natural given that they're a public company.

But Sun was doing that a few years ago -- outsiders have always seen
the SXCE or other editions linked from opensolaris.org as OpenSolaris.

Cheers,
--
Shawn Walker

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." -
Robert Orben
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