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Replies:
83
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Last Post:
May 29, 2006 9:03 PM
by: lnriusr
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Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 19, 2006 8:37 PM
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[No Body]
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Posts:
104
From:
San Jose, CA
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 19, 2006 8:37 PM
in response to: Guest
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On May 19, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
>>
>> Just as a side issue, seems rather late in the product cycle to be
>> including
>> ZFS given that once 01/07 is released, its only a matter of a year
>> that
>> Solaris 11 is released.
>>
>>
>>
> It's never too late to introduce something customers want!
>
> Ian.
I concur. Root ZFS is going to be immensely useful, especially in
instances where software mirroring of boot drives is done today by
means of SVM or VxVM.
-john
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 19, 2006 10:27 PM
in response to: rolnif
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On Saturday 20 May 2006 15:37, you wrote:
> On May 19, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
> > Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> >> Just as a side issu****eems rather late in the product cycle to be
> >> including
> >> ZFS*******that once 01/07 is released, its only a matter of a year
> >> that
> >> Solaris 11 is released.
> >
> > It's never too late to introduce something customers want!
> >
> > Ian.
>
> I concur. Root ZFS is going to be immensely useful, especially in
> instances where software mirroring of boot drives is done today by
> means of SVM or VxVM.
>
> -john
The question is, will GNOME integrate itself into ZFS, will we see some
*QUALITY* gui based administration tools for ZFS vs. the **** that is called
SMC (who ever designed that little piece of ******* deserves a public
flogging, then drowning in vinegar).
Matty
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 19, 2006 10:39 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME integrate itself into ZFS..."?
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Posts:
567
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 20, 2006 2:49 AM
in response to: swalker
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On Saturday 20 May 2006 17:39, Shawn Walker wrote:
> What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME integrate itself into
> ZFS..."?
The same way that ACL capabilities need to****integrated in with GNOME; the
same way in which configuration tools should be GNOME applications, not half
baked Java ****.
All very nice to have a GUI, but a waste of time if the GUI isn't integrated
in with the system itself.
Matty
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Posts:
262
From:
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Registered:
5/2/06
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 20, 2006 1:16 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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On 20/05/06, Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> On Saturday 20 May 2006 17:39, Shawn Walker wrote:
> > What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME integrate itself into
> > ZFS..."?
>
> The same way that ACL capabilities need to be integrated in with GNOME
Not really. GNOME needs to be aware of ACLs to take advantage of those
features. I don't see what business it is of GNOME what filesystem
it's running on.
If you mean you'd like a ZFS GUI admin tool, then by all means write one
(in whatever 'non-crappy' language you like), but that's not what I'd call
'integration'.
--
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
http://number9.hellooperator.net/
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 20, 2006 3:47 PM
in response to: number9
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On Sunday 21 May 2006 08:16, **** Davies wrote:
> On 20/05/06, Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > On Saturday 20 May 2006 17:39, Shawn Walker wrote:
> > > What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME integrate itself into
> > > ZFS..."?
> >
> > The same way that ACL capabilities need to be integrated in with GNOME
>
> Not really. GNOME needs to be aware of ACLs to take advantage of those
> features. I don't see what business it is of GNOME what filesystem
> it's running on.
If the file system had features that can be tweaked for files, then those
features should be exposed via an GUI; for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue? or am
have I crossed that sacred boundary of UNIX elitism to promoting the idea
making a SUN product usable to the mere mortal?
> If you mean you'd like a ZFS GUI admin tool, then by all means write one
> (in whatever 'non-crappy' language you like), but that's not what I'd call
> 'integration'.
Isn't that SUN's job of writing software for their operating system - or have
I fallen off the Apple bandwagon, and expecting too much from a
software/hardware vendor?
Matty
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 20, 2006 10:07 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>On Sunday 21 May 2006 08:16, **** Davies wrote:
>
>>Not really. GNOME needs to be aware of ACLs to take advantage of those
>>features. I don't see what business it is of GNOME what filesystem
>>it's running on.
>>
>>
>
>If the file system had features that can be tweaked for files, then those
>features should be exposed via an GUI; for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
>file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue? or am
>have I crossed that sacred boundary of UNIX elitism to promoting the idea
>making a SUN product usable to the mere mortal?
>
>
>
>>If you mean you'd like a ZFS GUI admin tool, then by all means write one
>>(in whatever 'non-crappy' language you like), but that's not what I'd call
>>'integration'.
>>
>>
>
>Isn't that SUN's job of writing software for their operating system - or have
>I fallen off the Apple bandwagon, and expecting too much from a
>software/hardware vendor?
>
>
>
I tend to agree this time, a working GUI for a new feature (or useful
exiting ones) helps newcomers, especially those from the windows world,
make the transition to Solaris. Many of these people expect a GUI and
will walk away if one isn't provided. Maybe a GUI should be part of any
new feature's development? It wouldn't have to be comprehensive, just
enough support the common, day to day, tasks.
Experienced UNIX users shun GUI applications in favour of the more
flexible and scriptable CLI, but if OpenSolaris is to appeal to the
masses (read those weaned on windows) a decent GUI is a must.
Ian
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Posts:
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From:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 2:05 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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On 20/05/06, Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
> file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue?
( I think zfs compresses filesystems, not files. So this
would be the equivalent of GNOME letting you set mount options
for a partition in 'about this file'. Assuming I'm wrong:)
This feature isn't available for e.g. ACLs on Linux, which is where the GNOME
project is coming from. I thought they wanted a common environment.
If you're talking about JDS, then I can see where making fuller use of
ACLs would
help. But that's not a ZFS thing.
As I said, if you want a zfs admin gui, then by all means go ahead. But the
priority is obviously a command line first (a lot of us don't run GUIs).
--
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
http://number9.hellooperator.net/
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Posts:
3,458
From:
NL
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 2:29 AM
in response to: number9
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>> for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
>> file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue?
>
>( I think zfs compresses filesystems, not files. So this
>would be the equivalent of GNOME letting you set mount options
>for a partition in 'about this file'. Assuming I'm wrong:)
It compresses all files in a filesystem. This can be turned off by
mountpoint.
Even if it was doable on a per file basis, the question is whether this
would be a useful feature to expose to the users.
Why would a user not want his files compressed?
Casper
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 2:36 AM
in response to: casper
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Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>>>for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
>>>file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue?
>>>
>>>
>>( I think zfs compresses filesystems, not files. So this
>>would be the equivalent of GNOME letting you set mount options
>>for a partition in 'about this file'. Assuming I'm wrong:)
>>
>>
>
>It compresses all files in a filesystem. This can be turned off by
>mountpoint.
>
>Even if it was doable on a per file basis, the question is whether this
>would be a useful feature to expose to the users.
>
>Why would a user not want his files compressed?
>
>
>
Performance? If the files are large and already compressed, JPEG or
MPEG for example.
Ian
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 3:44 AM
in response to: ian
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>Performance? If the files are large and already compressed, JPEG or
>MPEG for example.
That would still be a filesystem property: the performance issue
only rears its head when the file is written and compression is
attempted but fails (userland compressed files are not stored compressed:
the compression algorithm detects that there is no advantage in compressing
and then stores the file or blocks of the file uncompressed)
What you need is the ability of the filesystem to predict when compression
should not be attempted. That's a filesystem property, not a per-file
property.
Casper
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 4:26 AM
in response to: casper
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On 21/05/06, Casper.***@sun.com <Casper.***@sun.com> wrote:
> It compresses all files in a filesystem. This can be turned off by
> mountpoint.
> Even if it was doable on a per file basis, the question is whether this
> would be a useful feature to expose to the users.
Exactly - and to my mind that's not something a 'user' gui should be
exposing, as I wouldn't expect my users to be making those decisions.
(Yes, they could be, but that in turn needs an RBAC/prviliges aware UI.
That's much more useful across the board than filesystem-specific tweaks
IMO).
--
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
http://number9.hellooperator.net/
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Posts:
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From:
GB
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 2:54 AM
in response to: casper
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Casper.***@sun.com wrote:
>>> for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
>>> file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue?
>> ( I think zfs compresses filesystems, not files. So this
>> would be the equivalent of GNOME letting you set mount options
>> for a partition in 'about this file'. Assuming I'm wrong:)
>
> It compresses all files in a filesystem. This can be turned off by
> mountpoint.
As I understand the code it compresses blocks not files. This means
that if there is part of a file that is does compress 12.5% or more it
gets written to disk compressed. The parts that don't compress well
don't get compressed.
--
Darren J Moffat
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Robert Milkowski
rmilkowski@task.gda.pl
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Re[2]: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 1:30 AM
in response to: darrenm
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Hello Darren,
Monday, May 22, 2006, 11:54:40 AM, you wrote:
DJM> Casper.***@sun.com wrote:
>>>> for example, if ZFS can 'compress' a
>>>> file, then why not make it an option in the 'about this file' dialogue?
>>> ( I think zfs compresses filesystems, not files. So this
>>> would be the equivalent of GNOME letting you set mount options
>>> for a partition in 'about this file'. Assuming I'm wrong:)
>>
>> It compresses all files in a filesystem. This can be turned off by
>> mountpoint.
DJM> As I understand the code it compresses blocks not files. This means
DJM> that if there is part of a file that is does compress 12.5% or more it
DJM> gets written to disk compressed. The parts that don't compress well
DJM> don't get compressed.
But only if compression is turned on for a filesystem.
However I think it would be good to have an API so application can
decide what to compress and what not.
--
Best regards,
Robert mailto:rmilkowski at task dot gda dot pl
http://milek.blogspot.com
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 1:59 AM
in response to: Robert Milkowski
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Robert Milkowski wrote:
> But only if compression is turned on for a filesystem.
Of course, and the default is off.
> However I think it would be good to have an API so application can
> decide what to compress and what not.
I agree that an API would be good. However I don't think using the API
should allow an application to write compressed data if the file system
has that functionality turned off. Its a policy thing if the admin has
compression off it is off for a reason. Or maybe what we need is another
property value for compression that allows the app to request it but by
default we don't do it.
--
Darren J Moffat
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 2:02 AM
in response to: darrenm
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>Robert Milkowski wrote:
>
>> But only if compression is turned on for a filesystem.
>
>Of course, and the default is off.
>
>> However I think it would be good to have an API so application can
>> decide what to compress and what not.
>
>I agree that an API would be good. However I don't think using the API
>should allow an application to write compressed data if the file system
>has that functionality turned off. Its a policy thing if the admin has
>compression off it is off for a reason. Or maybe what we need is another
>property value for compression that allows the app to request it but by
>default we don't do it.
*Only* if we fail to come up with a mechanism to do this properly,
efficiently automagically.
Casper
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From:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 3:37 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > If you mean you'd like a ZFS GUI admin tool, then by all means write one
> > (in whatever 'non-crappy' language you like), but that's not what I'd call
> > 'integration'.
>
> Isn't that SUN's job of writing software for their operating system - or have
> I fallen off the Apple bandwagon, and expecting too much from a
> software/hardware vendor?
Depends on what you expect from your OS.
If you expect a "nice" (*) GUI but no rich set of features go and use Pac OS X
or maybe Linux
If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the right
way to go but then you should not expect everything from the GUI at the same
time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did attract more developers, you
will see the GUI features too, but I expect this to happen in 1-3 years and not
on 2006.
*) Whatever you understand by "bnice"
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 9:47 PM
in response to: joerg
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On Sunday 21 May 2006 22:37, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > > If you mean you'd like a ZFS GUI admin tool, then by all means write
> > > one (in whatever 'non-crappy' language you like), but that's not what
> > > I'd call 'integration'.
> >
> > Isn't that SUN's job of writing software for their operating system - or
> > have I fallen off the Apple bandwagon, and expecting too much from a
> > software/hardware vendor?
>
> Depends on what you expect from your OS.
>
> If you expect a "nice" (*) GUI but no rich set of features go and use Pac
> OS X or maybe Linux
>
> If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the right
> way to go but then you should not expect everything from the GUI at the
> same time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did attract more
> developers, you will see the GUI features too, but I expect this to happen
> in 1-3 years and not on 2006.
I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect that
there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with the
programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with something from the
21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and friends.
Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I am tempted to write a
thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of the 30,000 people
employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a *CLUE* about designing
and operating system that is pleasent to use!
Matty
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 2:13 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the right
> > way to go but then you should not expect everything from the GUI at the
> > same time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did attract more
> > developers, you will see the GUI features too, but I expect this to happen
> > in 1-3 years and not on 2006.
>
> I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect that
> there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with the
> programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with something from the
> 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and friends.
Did you ever try JDS?
It includes what you are looking for.
> Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I am tempted to write a
> thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of the 30,000 people
> employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a *CLUE* about designing
> and operating system that is pleasent to use!
If you believe to know hot to do it, do it....
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Geoff Lane
zzassgl@buffy.sighup...
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 4:43 AM
in response to: joerg
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On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:13:15AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Did you ever try JDS?
It was a loooooooooooong time before I realised that JDS wasn't some nasty
Java toy and was in fact Gnome. During that time I ignored it.
Sun really must find the person in marketing who is labelling everything
with "Java" and fire them. Sun Desktop System or even, gasp, Solaris
Desktop System would be better names and have the added advantage of
associating the thing with the company.
--
Geoff Lane
(A)bort, (R)etry, or (I)nfluence with hammer.
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Posts:
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From:
GB
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 4:47 AM
in response to: Geoff Lane
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Geoff Lane wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:13:15AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> Did you ever try JDS?
>
> It was a loooooooooooong time before I realised that JDS wasn't some nasty
> Java toy and was in fact Gnome. During that time I ignored it.
>
> Sun really must find the person in marketing who is labelling everything
> with "Java" and fire them. Sun Desktop System or even, gasp, Solaris
> Desktop System would be better names and have the added advantage of
> associating the thing with the company.
but that gives is SDS == Solstice Disk Suite; but we renamed that to hmn
what was it now LVM hmn so to use LVM I read the metadb man page :-)
Preaching to the choir here I think!
--
Darren J Moffat
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Posts:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 10:05 PM
in response to: darrenm
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On Monday 22 May 2006 23:47, Darren J Moffat wrote:
> Geoff Lane wrote:
> > On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:13:15AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> >> Did you ever try JDS?
> >
> > It was a loooooooooooong time before I realised that JDS wasn't some
> > nasty Java toy and was in fact Gnome. During that time I ignored it.
> >
> > Sun really must find the person in marketing who is labelling everything
> > with "Java" and fire them. Sun Desktop System or even, gasp, Solaris
> > Desktop System would be better names and have the added advantage of
> > associating the thing with the company.
>
> but that gives is SDS == Solstice Disk Suite; but we renamed that to hmn
> what was it now LVM hmn so to use LVM I read the metadb man page :-)
>
> Preaching to the choir here I think!
Why not call it Solaris Disk Manager? or Solaris Disk Co-ordinator?
Matty
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 4:51 AM
in response to: Geoff Lane
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Geoff Lane <zzassgl at buffy dot sighup dot org dot uk> wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:13:15AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > Did you ever try JDS?
>
> It was a loooooooooooong time before I realised that JDS wasn't some nasty
> Java toy and was in fact Gnome. During that time I ignored it.
>
> Sun really must find the person in marketing who is labelling everything
> with "Java" and fire them. Sun Desktop System or even, gasp, Solaris
> Desktop System would be better names and have the added advantage of
> associating the thing with the company.
A while ago, someone on c.u.s. posted that the name was choosen because
it lets more people recognise it.
... then the quetion came up why Sun dindn't call it Saddam Hussein Desktop
system ;-)
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
198
From:
Shanghai
Registered:
6/14/05
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 6:44 PM
in response to: joerg
|
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On 5/22/06, Joerg Schilling <schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de> wrote:
> Geoff Lane <zzassgl at buffy dot sighup dot org dot uk> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:13:15AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > > Did you ever try JDS?
> >
> > It was a loooooooooooong time before I realised that JDS wasn't some nasty
> > Java toy and was in fact Gnome. During that time I ignored it.
> >
> > Sun really must find the person in marketing who is labelling everything
> > with "Java" and fire them. Sun Desktop System or even, gasp, Solaris
> > Desktop System would be better names and have the added advantage of
> > associating the thing with the company.
>
> A while ago, someone on c.u.s. posted that the name was choosen because
> it lets more people recognise it.
>
> ... then the quetion came up why Sun dindn't call it Saddam Hussein Desktop
> system ;-)
>
> Jörg
I hate to feed this, but I just received an email Sun communications,
with subject: "Be Prepared with Sun Java Availability Suite"
My first thought was Sun is releasing a new Java product, since
JavaOne was just over.
http://www.sun.com/software/javaenterprisesystem/availabilitysuite/
So basically a cluster package for the Solaris platform, but doesn't
have either cluster or Solaris in its name ???!!!
Tao
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Posts:
567
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NZ
Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 10:05 PM
in response to: Geoff Lane
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On Monday 22 May 2006 23:43, Geoff Lane wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:13:15AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > Did you ever try JDS?
>
> It was a loooooooooooong time before I realised that JDS wasn't some nasty
> Java toy and was in fact Gnome. During that time I ignored it.
>
> Sun really must find the person in marketing who is labelling everything
> with "Java" and fire them. Sun Desktop System or even, gasp, Solaris
> Desktop System would be better names and have the added advantage of
> associating the thing with the company.
Solaris Desktop System, and the associated API's can be labelled as "Solaris
Desktop Foundation".
Matty
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 10:23 PM
in response to: joerg
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On Monday 22 May 2006 21:13, you wrote:
> Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > > If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the
> > > right way to go but then you should not expect everything from the GUI
> > > at the same time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did attract
> > > more developers, you will see the GUI features too, but I expect this
> > > to happen in 1-3 years and not on 2006.
> >
> > I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect that
> > there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with the
> > programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with something from
> > the 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and friends.
>
> Did you ever try JDS?
> It includes what you are looking for.
Ah, the wonderful, buggy, slow and problem prone Java based printer manager -
no thank you.
It might also help if SUN updated their drivers as well.
Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music - I mean, I know
this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I mean, there are only a few
million of them out there, but if SUN programmers could spare a bit of time
from their, well, what ever they do, could they atleast *attempt* to provide
a way for this to be a possibility.
> > Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I am tempted to write a
> > thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of the 30,000 people
> > employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a *CLUE* about
> > designing and operating system that is pleasent to use!
>
> If you believe to know hot to do it, do it....
I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the bloody obvious
to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of 30,000 there
isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls and dragging it
kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user usability, its a sad day
indeed.
Matty
Matty
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Posts:
282
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Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:27 PM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 17:24 +1200, Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> On Monday 22 May 2006 21:13, you wrote:
> > Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > > > If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the
> > > > right way to go but then you should not expect everything from the GUI
> > > > at the same time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did attract
> > > > more developers, you will see the GUI features too, but I expect this
> > > > to happen in 1-3 years and not on 2006.
> > >
> > > I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect that
> > > there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with the
> > > programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with something from
> > > the 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and friends.
> >
> > Did you ever try JDS?
> > It includes what you are looking for.
>
> Ah, the wonderful, buggy, slow and problem prone Java based printer manager -
> no thank you.
>
> It might also help if SUN updated their drivers as well.
>
> Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music - I mean, I know
> this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I mean, there are only a few
> million of them out there, but if SUN programmers could spare a bit of time
> from their, well, what ever they do, could they atleast *attempt* to provide
> a way for this to be a possibility.
>
> > > Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I am tempted to write a
> > > thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of the 30,000 people
> > > employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a *CLUE* about
> > > designing and operating system that is pleasent to use!
> >
> > If you believe to know hot to do it, do it....
>
> I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the bloody obvious
> to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of 30,000 there
> isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls and dragging it
> kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user usability, its a sad day
> indeed.
Hey, don't be sad! OpenSolaris is open at last... join distribution you
like and help us make it better. Want usability... this is Nexenta's
goals, wants compatibility, this is SchilliX goals, wants idealistic
perfection, this is BeleniX goals... or create something you will like.
I don't think blaming Sun will help at this point. OpenSolaris code is
ours now. Go ahead use it. Make it better and enjoy the life.
--
Erast
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:49 PM
in response to: erast
|
|
On Tuesday 23 May 2006 18:27, you wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 17:24 +1200, Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> > On Monday 22 May 2006 21:13, you wrote:
> > > Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > > > > If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the
> > > > > right way to go but then you should not expect everything from the
> > > > > GUI at the same time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did
> > > > > attract more developers, you will see the GUI features too, but I
> > > > > expect this to happen in 1-3 years and not on 2006.
> > > >
> > > > I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect
> > > > that there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with
> > > > the programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with
> > > > something from the 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print
> > > > and friends.
> > >
> > > Did you ever try JDS?
> > > It includes what you are looking for.
> >
> > Ah, the wonderful, buggy, slow and problem prone Java based printer
> > manager - no thank you.
> >
> > It might also help if SUN updated their drivers as well.
> >
> > Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music - I mean, I know
> > this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I mean, there are only a
> > few million of them out there, but if SUN programmers could spare a bit
> > of time from their, well, what ever they do, could they atleast *attempt*
> > to provide a way for this to be a possibility.
> >
> > > > Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I am tempted to
> > > > write a thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of the
> > > > 30,000 people employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a
> > > > *CLUE* about designing and operating system that is pleasent to use!
> > >
> > > If you believe to know hot to do it, do it....
> >
> > I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the bloody
> > obvious to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of
> > 30,000 there isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls
> > and dragging it kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user
> > usability, its a sad day indeed.
>
> Hey, don't be sad! OpenSolaris is open at last... join distribution you
> like and help us make it better. Want usability... this is Nexenta's
> goals, wants compatibility, this is SchilliX goals, wants idealistic
> perfection, this is BeleniX goals... or create something you will like.
>
> I don't think blaming Sun will help at this point. OpenSolaris code is
> ours now. Go ahead use it. Make it better and enjoy the life.
Thats what I'll do probably this week end; It'll be a waste of time as it'll
be ignored by the "OpenSolaris community", but by enlarge, it'll keep me busy
over the weekend.
Matty
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From:
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Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 12:09 AM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
Hey,
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>>> I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the bloody
>>> obvious to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of
>>> 30,000 there isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls
>>> and dragging it kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user
>>> usability, its a sad day indeed.
>> Hey, don't be sad! OpenSolaris is open at last... join distribution you
>> like and help us make it better. Want usability... this is Nexenta's
>> goals, wants compatibility, this is SchilliX goals, wants idealistic
>> perfection, this is BeleniX goals... or create something you will like.
>>
>> I don't think blaming Sun will help at this point. OpenSolaris code is
>> ours now. Go ahead use it. Make it better and enjoy the life.
>
> Thats what I'll do probably this week end; It'll be a waste of time as it'll
> be ignored by the "OpenSolaris community", but by enlarge, it'll keep me busy
> over the weekend.
I don't think you're being ignored - in fact most of the desktop related
work that we're doing have very much those goals in mind with just about
every project we work on. I think things are happening on this front -
perhaps not as quickly as you or I'd like, but things *are* happening,
and we're *always* listening.
I'd very much welcome any ideas you might have to improve the Solaris
desktop - either through bugs or mails to desktop-discuss.
Glynn
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Posts:
3,871
From:
GB
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 2:09 AM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> On Monday 22 May 2006 21:13, you wrote:
>> Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
>>>> If you expect a nice OS with a rich set of features, Solaris is the
>>>> right way to go but then you should not expect everything from the GUI
>>>> at the same time. Once the growing acceptance of Solaris did attract
>>>> more developers, you will see the GUI features too, but I expect this
>>>> to happen in 1-3 years and not on 2006.
>>> I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect that
>>> there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with the
>>> programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with something from
>>> the 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and friends.
>> Did you ever try JDS?
>> It includes what you are looking for.
>
> Ah, the wonderful, buggy, slow and problem prone Java based printer manager -
> no thank you.
>
> It might also help if SUN updated their drivers as well.
>
> Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music - I mean, I know
> this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I mean, there are only a few
> million of them out there, but if SUN programmers could spare a bit of time
> from their, well, what ever they do, could they atleast *attempt* to provide
> a way for this to be a possibility.
gtkpod ?
Which does run on Solaris:
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/darren?entry=gtkpod_use_of_df_1
--
Darren J Moffat
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Posts:
1,640
From:
US
Registered:
6/14/05
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 4:57 AM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
> On Monday 22 May 2006 21:13, you wrote:
[...]
> > > I don't expect everything to be available via a
> GUI, but I do expect that
> > > there is a decent printer configuration tool;
> that SUN get with the
> > > programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace
> it with something from
> > > the 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with
> GIMP-Print and friends.
Since back before Solaris2.6, anyone who could compile ghostscript and write some scripts
could get the existing lp subsystem to print to most printers, if they weren't
total slaves of the point and click mindset. Been there, done that. Never understood
why so few people managed to figure out generic SVR4 lp, although to be fair, I'd
read the original SVR4 reference port to SPARC code years ago, so I understood it
a bit better than the documentation provides for.
[...]
> Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music -
> I mean, I know
> this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I
> mean, there are only a few
> million of them out there, but if SUN programmers
> could spare a bit of time
> from their, well, what ever they do, could they
> atleast *attempt* to provide
> a way for this to be a possibility.
[...]
Music probably isn't something most commercial paying
customers even _want_ on their systems, given copyright
issues, attachment of untrusted hardware, huge disk space
usage, etc. However, if you'd bothered to google a bit before engaging
in crude, violent, and offensive speech (not the substance, but the way you
said it!), you'd have found:
http://cvs.opensolaris.org/source/raw/jds/docs/solaris-desktop-gaps.html
(yes, people are thinking about all this stuff already!)
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/watt?entry=gtkpod_with_aac_on_solaris
(gtkpod running on Solaris)
or even
http://5amsoftware.com/packages/gtkpod.jsp
pre-built gtkpod for Solaris 10 (x86 and sparc)
One piece of magic I haven't found yet: how to
get a 5g (video) iPod to mount on Solaris. I
suppose something obscure like a scsa2usb.conf
entry is needed. I did see that for awhile
people had a fair bit of trouble doing that on
Linux too, so I gather that a 5g iPod is just
different enough to require some special
attention.
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Posts:
5,829
From:
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Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 8:24 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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|
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music - I mean, I know
> this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I mean, there are only a few
> million of them out there, but if SUN programmers could spare a bit of time
> from their, well, what ever they do, could they atleast *attempt* to provide
> a way for this to be a possibility.
Brian Cameron from the JDS team has put a lot of work into improving the media
players situation for the upcoming JDS4/Vermillion software - have you even
looked at it? http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/desktop/communities/jds/
> I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the bloody obvious
> to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of 30,000 there
> isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls and dragging it
> kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user usability, its a sad day
> indeed.
And you have what proof of this? There are a number of people in the desktop
group working very hard on this, and thankfully they are ignoring your insults
and continuing to do so.
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 5:47 PM
in response to: alanc
|
|
On Wednesday 24 May 2006 03:24, you wrote:
> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> > Also, it would be nice to be able to sync up music - I mean, I know
> > this 'ipod' thing is a bit of a 'niche market' - I mean, there are only a
> > few million of them out there, but if SUN programmers could spare a bit
> > of time from their, well, what ever they do, could they atleast *attempt*
> > to provide a way for this to be a possibility.
>
> Brian Cameron from the JDS team has put a lot of work into improving the
> media players situation for the upcoming JDS4/Vermillion software - have
> you even looked at it?
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/desktop/communities/jds/
Yes I have, but it would require me to update my nice 'n stable Solaris
installation to a 'guinie pig mode.
If this JDS was available via for those of us running 'Solaris Classic' then
sure, I'd be running it right now, with a grin from ear to ear; and actively
participating in improving it via documentation for the en_NZ locale -
possibly start a translation into Maori.
> > I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the bloody
> > obvious to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of
> > 30,000 there isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls
> > and dragging it kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user
> > usability, its a sad day indeed.
>
> And you have what proof of this? There are a number of people in the
> desktop group working very hard on this, and thankfully they are ignoring
> your insults and continuing to do so.
Sorry about the insults :'-(
I've kicked myself off the list until I'm in a more civil mood - I'm not
normally like this, just when everything seems to be on my shoulders, and
things turning pear shaped :-/
Matty
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Posts:
1,015
From:
IE
Registered:
7/14/05
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 24, 2006 5:33 AM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
On 23 May 2006, at 06:24, Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> I've got better things to do with my time that pointing out the
> bloody obvious
> to a company who is unwilling to listen. When in a company of
> 30,000 there
> isn't a single person trying to grab Solaris by the balls and
> dragging it
> kicking and screaming into 2006 in terms of end user usability, its
> a sad day
> indeed.
A lot of your comments would probably be better targetted at the
approachability and desktop mailing lists, where most of the dragging
attempts are happening. The more people who drag, the faster it will
go.
Cheeri,
Calum.
--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum dot benson at sun dot com Java Desktop System Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771
Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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Posts:
1,732
From:
Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 7:16 AM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
> I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI,
> but I do expect that
> there is a decent printer configuration tool; that
> SUN get with the
> programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it
> with something from the
> 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and
> friends.
I have to sorely dissapoint you, but CUPS breaks in exactly the same way as "PoS lp" with my color LaserJet printer, so it's apparently no better than the "Solaris PoS lp".
And if I were you, next time I'd attempt to understand the stuff I'm about to diss.
> Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I
> am tempted to write a
> thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of
> the 30,000 people
> employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a
> *CLUE* about designing
> and operating system that is pleasent to use!
Reality check - Solaris isn't there to cook breakfast for you on your vanilla desktop PC you bought at Wal-Mart -- it's there so that the ATM can give you money out of your bank account and so that your monthly banking statement is OK, and many other things you take for granted.
If you want a dumbed down GUI in Solaris, by all means, I warmly encourage you to roll your sleeves up and get to work!
On the other hand, if you just want A GUI, then do look at Windows, Linux or OS X, all the three have plenty of that "play doh" look & feel to keep you happy for a very, very long time.
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
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Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 10:12 PM
in response to: ux-admin
|
|
On Tuesday 23 May 2006 02:16, UNIX admin wrote:
> > I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI,
> > but I do expect that
> > there is a decent printer configuration tool; that
> > SUN get with the
> > programme, ****h that POS that is lp, and replace it
> > with something from the
> > 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and
> > friends.
>
> I have to sorely dissapoint you, but CUPS breaks in ex****y the same way as
> "PoS lp" with my color LaserJet printer, so it's apparently no better than
> the "Solaris PoS lp".
>
> And if I were you, next time I'd attempt to understand the stuff I'm about
> to diss.
Fill me in, what model, I may be able to help.
Sorry, when I see people able to setup printers using CUPs, with the very odd
one not working, it says alot more than the current situation with Solaris.
> > Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I
> > am tempted to write a
> > thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of
> > the 30,000 people
> > employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a
> > *CLUE* about designing
> > and operating system that is pleasent to use!
>
> Reality check - Solaris isn't there to cook breakfast for you on your
> vanilla desktop PC you bought at Wal-Mart -- it's there so that you the ATM
> can give you money out of your bank account and so that your monthly
> banking statement is OK, and many other things you take for granted.
>
> If you want a dumbed down GUI in Solaris, by all means, I warmly encourage
> you to roll your sleeves up and get to work!
Wonderful, when it doubt, claim that any improvement to the user experience
is 'dumbing down' - just a quick question, who has 95% of the desktop?
> On the other hand, if you just want A GUI, then do look at Windows, Linux
> or OS X, all the three have plenty of that "play doh" look & feel to keep
> you happy for a very, very long time.
Pulease, I don't even know why I'm replying, but need I remind you that
Solaris isn't just a server OS, but a workstation one as well - if the
workstation experience is ****, then no one will run it as a workstation,
meaning less dollars in Johnny's pocket, and an unhappy Scott (as he see's
his shares nose dive).
Its not *MY* responsibility to fix up the **** ups of SUN - if I were fixing
them up, I sure as heck wouldn't doing it for free, I can tell you that!
Matty
Matty
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Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 11:54 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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> Fill me in, what model, I may be able to help.
hp color LaserJet 2500L.
> Sorry, when I see people able to setup printers using
> CUPs, with the very odd
> one ****working, it says alot more than the current
> situation with Solaris.
Like I wrote before, you really should at least try to understand more about the stuff you are about to diss. Solaris's lp uses PPD files just like CUPS does, in fact the some of the CUPS stuff has been integrated into Solaris's printing subsystem, like IPP for example.
So what you are dissing is something that you've been praising at the same time.
> Wonderful, when it doubt, claim that any improvement
> to the user experience
> is 'dumbing down' - just a quick question, who has
> 95% of the desktop?
Windows, but why should we care? The first thing that launches automatically when I log into my Solaris desktop are two xterms anyway. I spend about 0.1% of my time working with the GUI.
Give people a GUI and dumb the system down -- so we end up with more clueless users?
If it were up to me, I would NEVER make computers available to the masses -- the best computing experience I ever had were the years when you could count the number of people with computers on the fingers of my both hands!
We had some good code, good tools and nice systems. Then PCs happened and everything went to hell.
> Pulease, I don't even know why I'm replying, but need
> I remind you that
> Solaris isn't just a server OS, but a workstation one
> as well - if the
> workstation experience is ****, then no one will run
> it as a workstation,
> meaning less dollars in Johnny's pocket, and an
> unhappy Scott (as he see's
> his shares nose dive).
Reality check -- most of the BIG money is made selling servers, and of that supercomputers, not workstations.
In reality, nobody gives a **** about your desktop system -- that's not where the money is and YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN HAVE A DESKTOP BECAUSE THE NETWORK IS THE COMPUTER.
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Posts:
1,098
From:
CA
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 12:59 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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On Mon, 22 May 2006, Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> I don't expect everything to be available via a GUI, but I do expect that
> there is a decent printer configuration tool; that SUN get with the
> programme, lynch that POS that is lp, and replace it with something from the
> 21st century, namely CUPS coupled with GIMP-Print and friends.
I for one find lp very useful. WHat could be easier or quicker than typing
"lp foo"?
> Geeze, when I see the deficiencies in Solaris 10, I am tempted to write a
> thesis on 'why Solaris sucks' - it seem that out of the 30,000 people
> employed at SUN, there isn't even *ONE* person with a *CLUE* about designing
> and operating system that is pleasent to use!
Well I think that Solaris is very pleasant to use, I doubt I'm the only one.
Could it be improved? Yes, but that's not saying that it is currently unpleasant
to use.
--
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, OpenSolaris CAB member
President,
Rite Online Inc.
Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich
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227
From:
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Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 1:09 PM
in response to: rich
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On Mon, 22 May 2006, Rich Teer wrote:
> Well I think that Solaris is very pleasant to use, I doubt I'm the only one.
> Could it be improved? Yes, but that's not saying that it is currently unpleasant
> to use.
+1. I really do like JDS for me development work. I basically can sum it
up as "It gets the job done". I do like the Mac and use that occasionally
and I use Windows when I have to. Before I switched to Solaris I used KDE
almost exclusively. But now I spend most of my day in front of JDS by
choice.
Bill
rushmores.net
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 29, 2006 9:03 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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Actually Linux and many other unices both free and commercial have ACLs too that in theory need to be supported so I don't see why it should be our job here to implement a Gnome GUI for ACLs here. I guess the best people to talk to about this would be the Gnome people.
I'll be frank to you however. If you can't be bothered going to the shell then maybe UNIX just wasn't made for you. By all means try Apple's OSX, you will find they have some of the most comprehensive GUIs money can buy. Actually a personal friend of mine bought a MAC a month ago and he said he was impressed with what a snap it is to setup and run. He said he wanted it because he was sick and tired having to fiddle with X server visuals and the like just to play a game. He got MAME to run on it in no time he said and actually presented me the other day with a color screenshot of Zaxxon endlevel robot boss taken the instance he fragged it. Try to get a screenshot out of MAME running on a Linux framebuffer and you know that those Apple developers got it right. But then, Apple probably spent as much money and effort developing a world class desktop system as Sun spent on developing an enterprise class server OS so that should be another clue for you.
Tell you what, most GUI admin tools are more of a hassle to use than anything else. I don't know about you colleagues, but I spend at least six time as much time in one of those tools than glancing at the man page for a less used command and then just using that. This btw was also why I got rid of SuSE Linux at home over their graphical system configuration editor "YaST2" (AIX's SMIT reloaded). Oh and while we're on the subject for SMC I have little love left for either.
I'm not trying to make the case here of completely abandoning graphic tools but I think such efforts need to be focussed on basic simple tasks.
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Posts:
1,914
From:
NZ
Registered:
6/16/05
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 5:45 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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Hey,
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> On Saturday 20 May 2006 17:39, Shawn Walker wrote:
>> What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME integrate itself into
>> ZFS..."?
>
> The same way that ACL capabilities need to be integrated in with GNOME; the
> same way in which configuration tools should be GNOME applications, not half
> baked Java ****.
>
> All very nice to have a GUI, but a waste of time if the GUI isn't integrated
> in with the system itself.
That's already work in progress. Alo has actually already written
patches to integrate some functionality into the GNOME file browser. If
you check out the soon to be integrated into Nevada Vermillion releases,
you'll see this work. Check out the 'Access List' tab in the file
properties - the UI needs some work still, but it's getting there, and
looking pretty darn sexy!
Glynn
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Posts:
322
From:
GB
Registered:
1/18/06
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Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 5:52 PM
in response to: kaiwai
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> On Saturday****May 2006 17:39, Shawn Walker wrote:
> > What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME
> integrate itself into
> > ZFS..."?
>
> The same way that ACL capabilities need to be
> integrated in with GNOME; the
> same way in which configuration tools should be GNOME
> applications, not half
> baked Java ****.
Here is a blog for all those interested in ACL support in gnome -
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/alvaro?entry=gnome_zfs_and_the_acl
Doug
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567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
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Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:39 PM
in response to: drdoug
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On Tuesday 23 May 2006 12:52, Doug Scott wrote:
> > On Saturday 20 May 2006 17:39, Shawn Walker wrote:
> > > What do you mean by, "The question is, will GNOME
> >
> > integrate itself into
> >
> > > ZFS..."?
> >
> > The same way that ACL capabilities need to be
> > integrated in with GNOME; the
> > same way in which configuration tools should be GNOME
> > applications, not half
> > baked Java ****.
>
> Here is a blog for all those interested in ACL support in gnome -
> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/alvaro?entry=gnome_zfs_and_the_acl
>
> Doug
Very nice; now, nautilus and iPod integration, so that the iTunesDB is treated
like a directory, the information inside are displayed as files, thus,
allowing any files to be 'dragged and dropped' into the mock-file to be
copied to said device and iTunesDB updated at the same time (same process
when deleteing).
Matty
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Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 5:35 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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[...]
> Very nice; now, nautilus and iPod integration, so
> that the iTunesDB is treated
> like a directory, the information inside are
> displayed as files, thus,
> allowing any files to be 'dragged and dropped' into
> the mock-file to be
> copied to said device and iTunesDB updated at the
> same time (same process
> when deleteing).
That's an interesting sounding idea. Unfortunately, I suspect the practical
obstacles would be considerable. Whether anyone in GNOME
even on the Linux side would actually want to participate in the work is
another story, and for something like iPod support, I would think absent
_paying_ customers that wanted a really high level of integration, it would (has)
happen(ed) faster by porting something that already exists (gtkpod). I don't personally
know enough about how nautilus* works to know whether such a thing could be done as
some sort of plug-in, or whether it would have to be a patch to the outside nautilus distro;
if the latter, I suspect there'd be some resistance to diverging from it absent
some serious market demand; given that there _is_ some demand to update
the desktop software fairly frequently, that's a lot easier done if it's a straight
port, with platform-specific patches kept to a bare minimum, and all patches and
enhancements accepted by the outside developers.
* But I don't have to, since I don't work for Sun and in any event GUI code is usually
the _last_ thing I'd write, 'cause past the basics, it's the last thing I'd use. Not that
if it's there, it shouldn't satisfy most reasonable expectations. But that's something
I'm usually content to leave to others.
As for administrative GUIs, as much as I despise the generally useless differences of
AIX, I have to admit that in some ways "smit" doesn't suck. It provides menu access
to 95%+ of what one could do with commands, can log the actions it takes, and can
even show the command-line equivalents, so that when a _real_ administrator wants
to script some repetitive task, the worst they have to do is do something they haven't
done before once with smit, capture the equivalent commands it can show, and use
them with some shell variables within the loop of their script. And ISTR it has both
graphical and text (curses?) based forms, so it could work on a serial terminal, too.
All in all, something that could serve both junior admins and more senior ones that
were spread thin, and with the logging, could help with accountability, too, when the
junior ones still went and screwed things up even though they had a GUI.
I think there are a _lot_ of lessons that could be learned from "smit".
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 5:43 PM
in response to: rlhamil
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On Wednesday 24 May 2006 00:35, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> [...]
>
> > Very nice; now, nautilus and iPod integration, so
> > that the iTunesDB is treated
> > like a directory, the information inside are
> > displayed as files, thus,
> > allowing any files to be 'dragged and dropped' into
> > the mock-file to be
> > copied to said device and iTunesDB updated at the
> > same time (same process
> > when deleteing).
>
> That's an interesting sounding idea. Unfortunately, I suspect the
> practical obstacles would be considerable. Whether anyone in GNOME
> even on the Linux side would actually want to participate in the work is
> another story, and for something like iPod support, I would think absent
> _paying_ customers that wanted a really high level of integration, it would
> (has) happen(ed) faster by porting something that already exists (gtkpod).
> I don't personally know enough about how nautilus* works to know whether
> such a thing could be done as some sort of plug-in, or whether it would
> have to be a patch to the outside nautilus distro; if the latter, I suspect
> there'd be some resistance to diverging from it absent some serious market
> demand; given that there _is_ some demand to update the desktop software
> fairly frequently, that's a lot easier done if it's a straight port, with
> platform-specific patches kept to a bare minimum, and all patches and
> enhancements accepted by the outside developers.
>
> * But I don't have to, since I don't work for Sun and in any event GUI code
> is usually the _last_ thing I'd write, 'cause past the basics, it's the
> last thing I'd use. Not that if it's there, it shouldn't satisfy most
> reasonable expectations. But that's something I'm usually content to leave
> to others.
>
> As for administrative GUIs, as much as I despise the generally useless
> differences of AIX, I have to admit that in some ways "smit" doesn't suck.
> It provides menu access to 95%+ of what one could do with commands, can log
> the actions it takes, and can even show the command-line equivalents, so
> that when a _real_ administrator wants to script some repetitive task, the
> worst they have to do is do something they haven't done before once with
> smit, capture the equivalent commands it can show, and use them with some
> shell variables within the loop of their script. And ISTR it has both
> graphical and text (curses?) based forms, so it could work on a serial
> terminal, too. All in all, something that could serve both junior admins
> and more senior ones that were spread thin, and with the logging, could
> help with accountability, too, when the junior ones still went and screwed
> things up even though they had a GUI.
>
> I think there are a _lot_ of lessons that could be learned from "smit".
Well, I'm a bit of a 'KDE old timer' having used it since 1.0 with a rickety
old version of Red Hat many years ago - the one difference I think with GNOME
and KDE is this; there appears to actually be an effort by KDE to integrate
the UI and OS together, so that one *chooses* to use the CLI rather than
compelled/forced to because of crappy administration tools.
One should be given the option of using one or another; one should feel that
they *must have to* use the CLI on Solaris, when the most common of tasks -
setting up network, administrating the various components of Solaris
Enterprise Server, xorg, printers, hardware and driver installation, package
maintainence etc. etc. should be all available via a 'teh snappy' interface
(SMC doesn't count, its a dog) which has a modular back end as to allow third
parties to hook into the front end and provide configuration modules for
their particular products.
Turn the facility into something where by the whole system can be configured
and maintained from that one central location - Apple has it right, more or
less, with their System Preferences.
Matty
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Posts:
104
From:
San Jose, CA
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 24, 2006 6:53 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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On May 23, 2006, at 5:43 PM, Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> ...
> Turn the facility into something where by the whole system can be
> configured
> and maintained from that one central location - Apple has it right,
> more or
> less, with their System Preferences.
Apple even has the reverse problem. They try to make GUI tools
available to command-line users where they can. They realize that
there are actual UNIX folks trying to make their systems work via the
command-line instead of the GUI.
-john
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Posts:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 25, 2006 7:14 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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> Turn the facility into something where by the whole
> system can be configured
> and maintained from that one central location - Apple
> has it right, more or
> less, with their System Preferences.
Yes, hello. That's what JumpStart(TM) is for. The unfortunate thing is, it takes a high level of technical skill end experience to configure it, but it does central administration -- automatically.
So if you were capable of setting up and configuring JumpStart, then you'd never need to click around "in one place", because the system would install and configure himself -- automatically and without any human intervention whatsoever.
This works, and it works beautifully, provided you have the knowledge required to set it up.
The question is, should you have this knowledge? And I say most definitely yes -- otherwise you should be using Windows or OS X.
On the other hand, both of those operating systems are seriously impaired when it is time to do any serious work****s. They're desktop operating systems, not one-can-do-it-all operating environment like Solaris is.
Taking that into consideration, Solaris is doing pretty **** well since it is flexible enough to be used as a day-to-day MULTIMEDIA desktop as well as a mission critical infrastructure server, all at the same time.
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Posts:
176
From:
Ohio
Registered:
10/17/05
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 25, 2006 4:52 PM
in response to: ux-admin
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> Yes, hello. That's what JumpStart(TM) is for. The
> unfortunate thing is, it takes a high level of
> technical skill end experience to configure it, but
> it does central administration -- automatically.
Now, if only zones were configurable through the jumpstart mechanism. And, if only WANboot worked with the jumpstart filesystem layout, instead of everything having to be in a single flat directory. Then it would be really nice, and I wouldn't have my engineering team scrambling to try and figure out how to do truly remote builds and writing extra tools to do zone configuration.
There's a big cost savings opportunity for my company in these two features, and I could push a lot more Solaris if these were taken care of.
-spp
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 25, 2006 11:41 PM
in response to: spp
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> Now, if only zones were configurable through the
> jumpstart mechanism. And, if only WANboot worked
> with the jumpstart filesystem layout, instead of
> everything having to be in a single flat directory.
> Then it would be really nice, and I wouldn't have my
> engineering team scrambling to try and figure out
> how to do truly remote builds and writing extra
> tools to do zone configuration.
I'm not sure what you mean by "if only WANboot worked with the JumpStart filesystem layout". JumpStart does work with WANboot.
But why do you even need WANboot? This is more indicative of an architectural problem than a technical problem. Why didn't your engineering team write a spec for a Solaris IPSec crypto router/firewall? Then you wouldn't need WANboot because everything would be going over the VPN.
And, if you configure a DHCP server for JumpStart, you don't need WANboot either because DHCP can span networks via another DHCP relay server. The bonus is that JumpStart then supports PXE in addition to installing SPARC based systems. Much more scalable than WANboot.
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Posts:
3,871
From:
GB
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 26, 2006 2:49 AM
in response to: ux-admin
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UNIX admin wrote:
>> Now, if only zones were configurable through the
>> jumpstart mechanism. And, if only WANboot worked
>> with the jumpstart filesystem layout, instead of
>> everything having to be in a single flat directory.
>> Then it would be really nice, and I wouldn't have my
>> engineering team scrambling to try and figure out
>> how to do truly remote builds and writing extra
>> tools to do zone configuration.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "if only WANboot worked with the JumpStart filesystem layout". JumpStart does work with WANboot.
>
> But why do you even need WANboot? This is more indicative of an architectural problem than a technical problem. Why didn't your engineering team write a spec for a Solaris IPSec crypto router/firewall? Then you wouldn't need WANboot because everything would be going over the VPN.
I was part of the team that designed the WAN Boot solution (just the
advice on the crypto/security parts and how to use OpenSSL to do that).
WAN Boot was designed for a very specific customer use case that IPsec
can not solve in that customers environment. It was designed for the
case of doing the install over the untrustwrothy internet. IPsec just
wasn't an option in this case which is why WAN Boot does SSL.
My original suggestion, and that of several other security people, for
doing a cryptographically protected installation was to use NFSv3 with
RPCSEC_GSS. It need not be Kerberos we were willing at that time to
implement LIPKEY/SPKM to do this (we aren't now because we know they are
unsound and DTLS is a better solution).
It was the WAN Install project that brought us other goodness though:
pkgadd over https being one of them.
I have to say that WAN Boot to most people looks like it is missing
things but it does do what it was originally designed to do,
unfortunately that makes it not quite suitable for everyone.
--
Darren J Moffat
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Posts:
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From:
Ohio
Registered:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 28, 2006 7:51 AM
in response to: darrenm
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> I have to say that WAN Boot to most people looks like it is missing
> things but it does do what it was originally designed to do,
> unfortunately that makes it not quite suitable for everyone.
The concept of WANboot is very useful in a large distributed environment like mine. Due to the way our organization is (nearly 9000 Solaris servers across every continent), in about 150 datacenters (which may have from 1 to several hundreds servers in each), managed by literally hundreds of different teams with varying skill levels, anything more complex than our jumpstart wrapper scripts and "boot net" isn't feasible. And, maintaining two different layouts for jumpstart builds versus WAN builds isn't really feasible either.
It is unfortunate that WANboot does what it was designed to do, but that it wasn't designed to integrate well with other existing provisioning methods.
-spp
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Posts:
2,046
From:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 26, 2006 6:39 AM
in response to: spp
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Stephen Potter wrote:
>> Yes, hello. That's what JumpStart(TM) is for. The unfortunate thing
>> is, it takes a high level of technical skill end experience to
>> configure it, but it does central administration -- automatically.
>
> Now, if only zones were configurable through the jumpstart mechanism.
> And, if only WANboot worked with the jumpstart filesystem layout,
> instead of everything having to be in a single flat directory. Then
> it would be really nice, and I wouldn't have my engineering team
> scrambling to try and figure out how to do truly remote builds and
> writing extra tools to do zone configuration.
>
Stephen, both of these issues are points we plan to address in the
installation work going forward. I see Darren's explained a bit of the
background of why WAN installation has its current limitations, but
we've certainly had plenty of feedback suggesting that it has a much
wider usage opportunity if we can remove some of those limitations.
Thanks for adding to that evidence!
Dave
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 26, 2006 7:49 AM
in response to: dminer
|
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<quote who="Dave Miner">
> Stephen, both of these issues are points we plan to address in the
> installation work going forward. I see Darren's explained a bit of the
> background of why WAN installation has its current limitations, but
> we've certainly had plenty of feedback suggesting that it has a much
> wider usage opportunity if we can remove some of those limitations.
> Thanks for adding to that evidence!
I plan to be involved in these efforts!
-spp
--
Stephen Potter <spp at unixsa dot net>
Director, LOPSA Executive Board <http://
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is a disgrace, two
useless men are a law firm, and three are a congress." - John Adams
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 25, 2006 7:22 AM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
> Turn the facility into something where by the whole
> system can be configured
> and maintained from that one central location - Apple
> has it right, more or
> less, with their System Preferences.
And BTW, Apple has it completely wrong -- you can only do the most basic things with the GUI in OS X. As soon as you need to do anything advanced, like IPSec, the whole pretty pictures Apple GUI scheme breaks down.
If I had a dollar for every time I've cursed Apple when needing to do something advanced and not being able to do it the UNIX way, or not being able to do it at all, I'd be even richer than I am now.
The only company that ever managed to achieve close to a 100% GUI <---> UNIX intergration was SGI with their IRIX 6.5.x operating environment (not an operating system, but an operating environment).
Apple has some ways to go before they catch up with IRIX.
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Posts:
176
From:
Ohio
Registered:
10/17/05
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 25, 2006 4:55 PM
in response to: ux-admin
|
|
> The only company that ever managed to achieve close
> to a 100% GUI <---> UNIX intergration was SGI with
> their IRIX 6.5.x operating environment (not an
> operating system, but an operating environment).
Hmm.... SGI is in Chapter 11. They can probably be picked up for a song; or not more than USD 8-10m.
-spp
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Posts:
3,928
From:
DE
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 2:44 AM
in response to: drdoug
|
|
Doug Scott <dougs at truemail dot co dot th> wrote:
> > The same way that ACL capabilities need to be
> > integrated in with GNOME; the
> > same way in which configuration tools should be GNOME
> > applications, not half
> > baked Java ****.
>
> Here is a blog for all those interested in ACL support in gnome -
> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/alvaro?entry=gnome_zfs_and_the_acl
If this blog would mention that the RFC 3530 ACLs are a bitwise copy
of the MS-WIN NTFS ACLs, it would be easier to understand by most people.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
7
From:
Menlo Park, California USA
Registered:
4/18/06
|
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 20, 2006 10:45 PM
in response to: rolnif
|
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|
Our big customers are just starting to deploy Solaris 10. We are
still on the ISV growth path. 2007 is far too early to introduce a
new release.
I have been telling customers the next release, whatever it's called,
will happen some time between 2008 and 2010.
Regards,
Glenn
John Martinez wrote:
>
> On May 19, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Ian Collins wrote:
>
>> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just as a side issue, seems rather late in the product cycle to be
>>> including
>>> ZFS given that once 01/07 is released, its only a matter of a year
>>> that
>>> Solaris 11 is released.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> It's never too late to introduce something customers want!
>>
>> Ian.
>
>
> I concur. Root ZFS is going to be immensely useful, especially in
> instances where software mirroring of boot drives is done today by
> means of SVM or VxVM.
>
> -john
> _______________________________________________
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss at opensolaris dot org
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Posts:
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From:
DE
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 2:41 AM
in response to: weinberg
|
|
Glenn Weinberg <glenn dot weinberg at sun dot com> wrote:
> Our big customers are just starting to deploy Solaris 10. We are
> still on the ISV growth path. 2007 is far too early to introduce a
> new release.
>
> I have been telling customers the next release, whatever it's called,
> will happen some time between 2008 and 2010.
Hi Glenn,
does this mean that you vote for deferring the Solaris 11 release date from
October 2007 to 2008?
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
1,760
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 2:55 AM
in response to: joerg
|
|
Joerg Schilling wrote:
>Glenn Weinberg <glenn dot weinberg at sun dot com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Our big customers are just starting to deploy Solaris 10. We are
>>still on the ISV growth path. 2007 is far too early to introduce a
>>new release.
>>
>>I have been telling customers the next release, whatever it's called,
>>will happen some time between 2008 and 2010.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Glenn,
>
>does this mean that you vote for deferring the Solaris 11 release date from
>October 2007 to 2008?
>
>
>
I guess the obvious question with all the good bits form OpenSolaris
trickling into Solaris 10 updates, will there ever be another release?
Look at the difference between 10 FCS and the forthcoming Update2,
almost as big a change as between previous major releases.
Ian
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Posts:
3,458
From:
NL
Registered:
3/9/05
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|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 3:47 AM
in response to: ian
|
|
>I guess the obvious question with all the good bits form OpenSolaris
>trickling into Solaris 10 updates, will there ever be another release?
The changes into S10 updates are generally relatively small, except
for newboot (as it's an in-your-face change).
ZFS is not a big change in the sense it is avoidable.
>Look at the difference between 10 FCS and the forthcoming Update2,
>almost as big a change as between previous major releases.
In Sun-speak, there have been no major releases since Solaris 2.0.
Solaris 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 are all *minor*
releases (minor meaning: full backward compatibility for applications
with the exception of end-of-features)
And while changes in S10 updates are big, they are still dwarfed by
the amount of change between S9 and S10.
Casper
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Posts:
1,914
From:
NZ
Registered:
6/16/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 5:37 PM
in response to: casper
|
|
Hi,
Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> I guess the obvious question with all the good bits form OpenSolaris
>> trickling into Solaris 10 updates, will there ever be another release?
>
> The changes into S10 updates are generally relatively small, except
> for newboot (as it's an in-your-face change).
>
> ZFS is not a big change in the sense it is avoidable.
It does rather beg the question of what expectations we're building from
a customer point of view with the update releases - clearly they're not
just bug fixes anymore. And with the possibility, as Glenn mentioned, of
Solaris 11 not being available until 2008/2010 are we going to expect
more things [like an updated GNOME, BrandZ, ...] be pushed back into an
Update release?
Glynn
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Posts:
3,458
From:
NL
Registered:
3/9/05
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 11:26 PM
in response to: gman
|
|
>>> I guess the obvious question with all the good bits form OpenSolaris
>>> trickling into Solaris 10 updates, will there ever be another release?
>>
>> The changes into S10 updates are generally relatively small, except
>> for newboot (as it's an in-your-face change).
>>
>> ZFS is not a big change in the sense it is avoidable.
>
>It does rather beg the question of what expectations we're building from
>a customer point of view with the update releases - clearly they're not
>just bug fixes anymore. And with the possibility, as Glenn mentioned, of
>Solaris 11 not being available until 2008/2010 are we going to expect
>more things [like an updated GNOME, BrandZ, ...] be pushed back into an
>Update release?
Update releases haven't been "just patches" for many years; many
new features were introduced that way.
However, it will be increasingly hard to backport as the release
progresses and diverges more from S10.
Casper
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Posts:
1,914
From:
NZ
Registered:
6/16/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 3:31 AM
in response to: casper
|
|
Hi,
Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
> Update releases haven't been "just patches" for many years; many
> new features were introduced that way.
So a thought just dawned on me - how does this really preserve
customer's confidence in a stable release if it's not just patches
anymore? While I'm sure we can guarantee stability etc. is the fact that
we're putting so much stuff into the updates discouraging large ISVs
upgrading?
Mostly just curious and trying to understand the types of decisions
being made.
Glynn
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Posts:
3,458
From:
NL
Registered:
3/9/05
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 4:20 AM
in response to: gman
|
|
>Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> Update releases haven't been "just patches" for many years; many
>> new features were introduced that way.
>
>So a thought just dawned on me - how does this really preserve
>customer's confidence in a stable release if it's not just patches
>anymore? While I'm sure we can guarantee stability etc. is the fact that
>we're putting so much stuff into the updates discouraging large ISVs
>upgrading?
>
>Mostly just curious and trying to understand the types of decisions
>being made.
Well, it's all marketing and little substance.
The customer believes that the releases carrying a fixed name the
longest is the most stable. We think that all releases are about as
stable, and FCS is pretty close to being well-intergrated, well, tested
and very compatible.
We do allow for slightly more incompatibilities between S10 and S11;
but those are few and far between.
The stablest release is always the one the customer runs without trouble;
and upgrade will cause some issues.
Casper
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Posts:
312
From:
Burlington, MA
Registered:
6/13/05
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|
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 8:30 AM
in response to: gman
|
|
On Mon 05/22/06 at 12:39 PM, Glynn dot Foster at Sun dot COM wrote:
>
> It does rather beg the question of what expectations we're building from
> a customer point of view with the update releases - clearly they're not
> just bug fixes anymore. And with the possibility, as Glenn mentioned, of
> Solaris 11 not being available until 2008/2010 are we going to expect
> more things [like an updated GNOME, BrandZ, ...] be pushed back into an
> Update release?
BrandZ was always intended to be an S10 feature, so it will be in an
update.
Nils
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Posts:
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From:
NZ
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|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 2:36 PM
in response to: nilsn
|
|
Nils Nieuwejaar wrote:
>On Mon 05/22/06 at 12:39 PM, Glynn dot Foster at Sun dot COM wrote:
>
>
>>It does rather beg the question of what expectations we're building from
>>a customer point of view with the update releases - clearly they're not
>>just bug fixes anymore. And with the possibility, as Glenn mentioned, of
>>Solaris 11 not being available until 2008/2010 are we going to expect
>>more things [like an updated GNOME, BrandZ, ...] be pushed back into an
>>Update release?
>>
>>
>
>BrandZ was always intended to be an S10 feature, so it will be in an
>update.
>
>
>
That's a good point, if you look back at all the pre-release marketing
hype, we're still waiting for Solaris 10 :)
Ian
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:35 PM
in response to: ian
|
|
On Tuesday 23 May 2006 09:36, Ian Collins wrote:
> Nils Nieuwejaar wrote:
> >On Mon 05/22/06 at 12:39 PM, Glynn dot Foster at Sun dot COM wrote:
> >>It does rather beg the question of what expectations we're building from
> >>a customer point of view with the update releases - clearly they're not
> >>just bug fixes anymore. And with the possibility, as Glenn mentioned, of
> >>Solaris 11 not being available until 2008/2010 are we going to expect
> >>more things [like an updated GNOME, BrandZ, ...] be pushed back into an
> >>Update release?
> >
> >BrandZ was always intended to be an S10 feature, so it will be in an
> >update.
>
> That's a good point, if you look back at all the pre-release marketing
> hype, we're still waiting for Solaris 10 :)
Which isn't very good, as people may expect those features to be in the
release.
No use screaming, "Solaris 10 with heaps of features!" then putting in small
print, "except foo, bah, and blah"
Matty
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Posts:
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From:
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|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 9:23 AM
in response to: gman
|
|
Glynn Foster wrote:
> It does rather beg the question of what expectations we're building from
> a customer point of view with the update releases - clearly they're not
> just bug fixes anymore.
Update Releases were never just bug fixes. They were explicitly introduced
as a way to deliver new features between the full releases. (I joined Sun
as the Desktop group was working on the X11R6.0->X11R6.4 upgrade and various
new CDE features for the Solaris 7 11/99 update release.)
You can see the way we've been setting this customer expectation for years:
"Several times a year, Sun offers updates to the Solaris operating system. The
updates are designed to provide new functionality in a controlled, compatible
fashion."
- http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/features/articles/solarisVersions.html
(written for Solaris 8 releases)
--
-Alan Coopersmith- alan dot coopersmith at sun dot com
Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
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|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 9:35 PM
in response to: joerg
|
|
On Sunday 21 May 2006 21:41, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> Glenn Weinberg <glenn dot weinberg at sun dot com> wrote:
> > Our big customers are just starting to deploy Solaris 10. We are
> > still on the ISV growth path. 2007 is far too early to introduce a
> > new release.
> >
> > I have been telling customers the next release, whatever it's called,
> > will happen some time between 2008 and 2010.
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
> does this mean that you vote for deferring the Solaris 11 release date from
> October 2007 to 2008?
>
> Jörg
So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date desktop
until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgasms
knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
Matt
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Posts:
7
From:
Menlo Park, California USA
Registered:
4/18/06
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 10:45 PM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
|
|
The last thing our ISVs want is a new interface to write to while
they're still qualifying the current one.
Ditto for our big corporate customers.
Remember, this is commercial Solaris we're talking about - not
OpenSolaris. That means two things:
1) We can and will innovate in OpenSolaris
2) If you're right that the demand for a new interface is out there,
anyone can create a new distro based on OpenSolaris and
provide it to anyone who wants it.
In addition, I'm sure our innovative community will come up with ways to
layer a new desktop on top of Solaris 10 for those who are interested.
Regards,
Glenn
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
<pre wrap="">On Sunday 21 May 2006 21:41, Joerg Schilling wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Glenn Weinberg <glenn dot weinberg at sun dot com> wrote:
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Our big customers are just starting to deploy Solaris 10. We are
still on the ISV growth path. 2007 is far too early to introduce a
new release.
I have been telling customers the next release, whatever it's called,
will happen some time between 2008 and 2010.
</pre>
<pre wrap="">Hi Glenn,
does this mean that you vote for deferring the Solaris 11 release date from
October 2007 to 2008?
Jörg
</pre>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date desktop
until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgasms
knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
Matt
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</pre>
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Posts:
1,569
From:
Cobourg Ontario Canada
Registered:
4/27/05
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 11:24 PM
in response to: weinberg
|
|
> The last thing our ISVs want is a new interface to write to while
> they're still qualifying the current one.
>
> Ditto for our big corporate customers.
>
> Remember, this is commercial Solaris we're talking about - not
> OpenSolaris. That means two things:
>
> 1) We can and will innovate in OpenSolaris
> 2) If you're right that the demand for a new interface is out there,
> anyone can create a new distro based on OpenSolaris and
> provide it to anyone who wants it.
>
> In addition, I'm sure our innovative community will come up with ways to
> layer a new desktop on top of Solaris 10 for those who are interested.
>
Over at Blastwave I just spent two weeks testing the new Xfce 4.2.3 :
http://www.blastwave.org/dclarke/xfce_4.2.3_netbeans_5.0_installer.png
http://www.blastwave.org/dclarke/xfce_4.2.3.png
http://www.blastwave.org/dclarke/netbeans_5.0_SeaMonkey_2.png
I threw everything from soup to nuts at it and it runs real nice
on top of Solaris.
Of course people can have full blown KDE or GNOME or we have a new build of
fluxbox just released also and thats a hot looking desktop.
Or gee, there is JDS and even .. yes ,, you guessed it .. CDE !
--
Dennis Clarke
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Posts:
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From:
NL
Registered:
3/9/05
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 11:44 PM
in response to: kaiwai
|
|
>So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date=
> desktop=20
>until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgas=
>ms=20
>knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
And you draw this conclusion because?
Which law of nature prohibits updating the desktop in an update
release?
Casper
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Posts:
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From:
NZ
Registered:
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|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 21, 2006 11:59 PM
in response to: casper
|
|
Hi,
Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date=
>> desktop=20
>> until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgas=
>> ms=20
>> knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
>
> And you draw this conclusion because?
>
> Which law of nature prohibits updating the desktop in an update
> release?
When the desktop relies on other components that rely on other
components that rely on new kernel bits that can't for some reason be
backported. Even if they could, by this stage you've almost got a
traditionally non-update release? Technically possible, may even
socially acceptable, but requires a hell of a lot of coordination ;)
Glynn
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Posts:
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From:
NL
Registered:
3/9/05
|
|
|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 12:01 AM
in response to: gman
|
|
>When the desktop relies on other components that rely on other
>components that rely on new kernel bits that can't for some reason be
>backported. Even if they could, by this stage you've almost got a
>traditionally non-update release? Technically possible, may even
>socially acceptable, but requires a hell of a lot of coordination ;)
Trusted Extenstions will be available on S10; that seems to
be wide ranging (from kernel to X server)
Casper
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Posts:
388
From:
US
Registered:
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|
|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 4:40 PM
in response to: gman
|
|
On Mon, 22 May 2006, Glynn Foster wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>>> So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date=
>>> desktop=20
>>> until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgas=
>>> ms=20
>>> knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
>>
>> And you draw this conclusion because?
>>
>> Which law of nature prohibits updating the desktop in an update
>> release?
>
> When the desktop relies on other components that rely on other components
> that rely on new kernel bits that can't for some reason be backported. Even
> if they could, by this stage you've almost got a traditionally non-update
> release? Technically possible, may even socially acceptable, but requires a
> hell of a lot of coordination ;)
>
Yes, it does ;-) As Casper pointed out, we are doing this
right now to get Trusted Extensions out, and there have been
other projects in the past that had "cross-consolidation" dependancies.
We do, as a matter of course, have to limit which features can
come into an update release. We normally start with a list of
features that will be ready in the correct time frame that are
interested in backporting, then we get marketing to do a first
pass to determine which features would actually be desired or
used by S10 Customers.
Obviously, some things, like ZFS, were originally marketed as
an S10 feature, but did not quite make the release. Those things
are utmoust priority to get out in an update.
Within Sun's software developement, we use something called "binding"
determined by our architectural review committees to help determine
the appropriate releases such a change can target. Nevada (OpenSolaris/S11)
is micro binding right now - so bigger changes can go in there that
cannot go into an update (which are "patch" binding, since the updates
are essentially made up of patches). It's all based on interface
changes & ability to backout or not use a feature.
Valerie
--
Sponsor me in the Breathe Easy 2 Rock Ride - 65 miles!
Money raised goes to the American Lung Association:
http://www.mrsnv.com/evt/e01/part.jsp?id=805&acct=0273018478&rid=0
I'll take care of the Sun matching gift for you! Easy!
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From:
NL
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|
Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:53 PM
in response to: bubbva
|
|
>Within Sun's software developement, we use something called "binding"
>determined by our architectural review committees to help determine
>the appropriate releases such a change can target. Nevada (OpenSolaris/S11)
>is micro binding right now - so bigger changes can go in there that
>cannot go into an update (which are "patch" binding, since the updates
>are essentially made up of patches). It's all based on interface
>changes & ability to backout or not use a feature.
I thought Nevada was back to minor already (that's why we switched from
5.10.1 to 5.11 at some point)
Casper
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Posts:
567
From:
NZ
Registered:
4/27/06
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 23, 2006 5:37 PM
in response to: casper
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On Tuesday 23 May 2006 18:53, Casper.***@sun.com wrote:
> >Within Sun's software developement, we use something called "binding"
> >determined by our architectural review committees to help determine
> >the appropriate releases such a change can target. Nevada
> > (OpenSolaris/S11) is micro binding right now - so bigger changes can go
> > in there that cannot go into an update (which are "patch" binding, since
> > the updates are essentially made up of patches). It's all based on
> > interface changes & ability to backout or not use a feature.
>
> I thought Nevada was back to minor already (that's why we switched from
> 5.10.1 to 5.11 at some point)
Hmm, my understanding was that Nevada would be the basis on which Solaris 11
would be based upon; and by the time Solaris 11 shipped, all the components
(barring some drivers) will be completely opensource; xorg for the xserver,
opensolaris for the core and JDS for the default desktop.
Matty
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Posts:
372
From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 24, 2006 10:20 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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On Wed, May 24, 2006 at 12:38:05PM +1200, Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 18:53, Casper.***@sun.com wrote:
> > >Within Sun's software developement, we use something called "binding"
> > >determined by our architectural review committees to help determine
> > >the appropriate releases such a change can target. Nevada
> > > (OpenSolaris/S11) is micro binding right now - so bigger changes can go
> > > in there that cannot go into an update (which are "patch" binding, since
> > > the updates are essentially made up of patches). It's all based on
> > > interface changes & ability to backout or not use a feature.
> >
> > I thought Nevada was back to minor already (that's why we switched from
> > 5.10.1 to 5.11 at some point)
>
> Hmm, my understanding was that Nevada would be the basis on which Solaris 11
> would be based upon; and by the time Solaris 11 shipped, all the components
> (barring some drivers) will be completely opensource; xorg for the xserver,
> opensolaris for the core and JDS for the default desktop.
Which would imply a "Minor" release; 5.10 is Solaris 10, and 5.11 will
(presumably; marketing has futzed with this before) be Solaris 11.
Cheers,
- jonathan
--
Jonathan Adams, Solaris Kernel Development
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Posts:
388
From:
US
Registered:
3/9/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 24, 2006 1:28 PM
in response to: casper
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On Tue, 23 May 2006 Casper.***@sun.com wrote:
>
>> Within Sun's software developement, we use something called "binding"
>> determined by our architectural review committees to help determine
>> the appropriate releases such a change can target. Nevada (OpenSolaris/S11)
>> is micro binding right now - so bigger changes can go in there that
>> cannot go into an update (which are "patch" binding, since the updates
>> are essentially made up of patches). It's all based on interface
>> changes & ability to backout or not use a feature.
>
>
> I thought Nevada was back to minor already (that's why we switched from
> 5.10.1 to 5.11 at some point)
You're right - that's what I meant, but not what I typed. Thanks
for catching it. :)
But, as pointed out later by Jonathan - being 5.11 means nothing for
what the final name might be when marketing decides to release this :)
Valerie
--
Sponsor me in the Breathe Easy 2 Rock Ride - 65 miles!
Money raised goes to the American Lung Association:
http://www.mrsnv.com/evt/e01/part.jsp?id=805&acct=0273018478&rid=0
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Posts:
168
From:
Sunnyvale, California
Registered:
4/29/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:06 PM
in response to: casper
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Casper.***@Sun.COM wrote:
>> So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date=
>> desktop=20
>> until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgas=
>> ms=20
>> knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
>
> And you draw this conclusion because?
>
> Which law of nature prohibits updating the desktop in an update
> release?
To be fair there was something of a mess in Solaris 9 after two
incompatible versions of GNOME shipped. Recommended patch clusters
became difficult or impossible from GNOME (which version to patch?) and
there were copies of Mozilla and friends which might or might not
install and run depending on which of the two GNOME packages you had.
So while feature upgrades are good, it makes it more important that
packages are upwardly compatible. Which has not always been the case
for things like GNOME. Or that there's some other mitigation scheme to
deal with this.
Hugh.
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Posts:
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From:
DE
Registered:
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 2:11 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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Matthew Gardiner <kaiwai dot gardiner at gmail dot com> wrote:
> > does this mean that you vote for deferring the Solaris 11 release date from
> > October 2007 to 2008?
> So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a majorly out of date desktop
> until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just have multiple orgasms
> knowing they're relying on out of date infrastructure.
I am not sure if you did missinterpret things.
Many features are backported immediatly (in fact most stuff that does not break
100% binary compatibility). Check e.g. cdrecord, it will be part of the S 10 U2
release.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg at schily dot isdn dot cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
schilling at fokus dot fraunhofer dot de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Posts:
322
From:
GB
Registered:
1/18/06
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 3:11 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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> On Sunday 21 May 2006 21:41, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > Glenn Weinberg <glenn dot weinberg at sun dot com> wrote:
> > > Our big customers are just starting to deploy
> Solaris 10. We are
> > > still on the ISV growth path. 2007 is far too
> early to introduce a
> > > new release.
> > >
> > > I have been telling customers the next release,
> whatever it's called,
> > > will happen some time between 2008 and 2010.
> >
> > Hi Glenn,
> >
> > does this mean that you vote for deferring the
> Solaris 11 release date from
> > October 2007 to 2008?
> >
> > Jörg
>
> So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a
> majorly out of date desktop
> until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just
> have multiple orgasms
> knowing they're relying on out of date
> infrastructure.
>
> Matt
Gnome 2.14.x is soon to come out in Solaris 11 nevada. It will be up to Sun if it is added to a Sol10 Update. Bye Bye, Gnome 2.6... It should be a Solaris Express Release.
Re: Solaris 10 adoption - Many of Sun's customers would still be using Solaris 8. Earlier versions such as 2.6 would not be uncommon. Many large organizations change their finance system faster then the change the Solaris OS version (they also have windows so they know changes can be bad). They probably dont care so much about the desktop either. I do, thats why I run Nevada.
Probably the main decision you have on which release to pick -
Solaris 10 - You want stability. It is what Sun certify - Has patch release and quarterly updates. It is what Sun has to support.
Solaris Express - Has regular release updates - No patches - Generally well tested features. Any issues are well known. Based on a recent stable Nevada Release.
Nevada Community release - Seat of your pants, expect issues - No patches, you are testing with the developers.
Doug
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Posts:
1,732
From:
Registered:
7/15/05
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Re: Re: where to start?
Posted:
May 22, 2006 11:50 AM
in response to: kaiwai
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> So in otherwords, Solaris 10 will be stuck with a
> majorly out of date desktop
> until 2010 - spended, I'm sure the ISV's are just
> have multiple orgasms
> knowing they're relying on out of date
> infrastructure.
If you consider desktop to be infrastructure, you've got another thing coming.
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